Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[Grousemore]

Just for you Trevor - a five minute search!

Successful prosecutions against pigeon fanciers

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/Birdcrime_2003_tcm5-59782.pdf (N.Wales for killing Sparrowhawk)
http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/legaleagle44_tcm5-69748.pdf (Halifax - illegal use of baited trap)
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Web_Assets/PSD/Caip_News_Spring03.pdf 2 PFs in South wales attempting to poison Peregrine



Attempts to poison Peregrines with pigeon
http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/legaleagle47_tcm5-98075.pdf
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Web_Assets/PSD/Caip_News_0701.pdf

Thanks, Jane...as I thought, hardly an epidemic!

 

[Jane Turner]

Thanks, Jane...as I thought, hardly an epidemic!

Its a blinking pandemic if you compare it against all convictions of which there are almost none in the first case.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Lost me a little here Anthony, sorry. Perhaps not at my brightest, but the relevance of this to the Peregrine debate is?

That despite their perceived large numbers, feral/racing pigeons are not an inexhaustable resource and in the UK their numbers are already declining.

 

[Anthony Morton]

So it is possible to say that a very significant proportion of the successful UK Peregrine persecution prosecutions are against PFs.

Certainly not! It has already been stated several times that there has only ever been ONE case where two pigeon fanciers were successfully convicted of setting a poisoned bait in the vicinity of a Peregrine Falcon's nest. Hardly an epidemic is it?

It then follows that either a significant proportion or Peregrine persecutors are PFs or PFs represent a particularly dim part of the gene pool and do things that make their crimes easier to detect!

No it doesn't. To the best of my knowledge there has never been another persecution case brought specifically against pigeon fanciers. As for your claim regarding the gene pool, this appears to be a totally unnecessary attempt at mischief making on your part - and well you know it. With all your qualifications, you of all people should know enough never to underestimate an opponent!

 

[Anthony Morton]

Perhaps Anthony is worrying that people with guns might mistake pigeons for Peregrines and shoot them accordingly.

It might surprise you to know that in the UK it is an offence in law to shoot racing pigeons.

 

[London Birder]

That despite their perceived large numbers, feral/racing pigeons are not an inexhaustable resource and in the UK their numbers are already declining.

Anthony, can you give a source for this please ..

 

[Anthony Morton]

Quote:
Anthony Morton:
"We seem to have conflicting answers coming from the pro-raptor lobby as to whether racing and/or feral pigeons play any part in the UK population of the Peregrine Falcon. Based on other comments I find this confusing to say the least. In your paragraph quoted above you are quite specific that pigeons DON'Tplay any part, while in his Posting #36, 'valley boy' is adamant that in South Wales at least they DO!"


Hi Anthony

Where in my post did I say pigeons don't play any part, what I said was.
"Peregrines could survive and prosper quite well in the UK without being supplied with a free meal of RP's, (tame feral pigeons), there are thousands of free flying feral pigeons available throughout Great Britain, not to mention, the crow and gull families."

By tame feral pigeons I mean RP's (Racing Pigeons), the free flying pigeons are the hundreds of thousands of wild (if that's the right description) feral pigeons seen almost everywhere in the UK. There are also of course the real pigeons, (Rock Doves) of which there are quite a lot in my neck of the woods and in parts of Wales I believe.

I doubt Peregrines can differentiate between RP's and wild feral pigeons, they probably look the same at 100 miles per hour, therefore removing the RP's from the food chain would hardly make any difference to the amount of food available, they may find their dinner is not so easy to catch however!

nirofo.

Hi nirofo,

I'm sorry, but what you are suggesting is still the complete opposite to what actually happened according to 'valley boy's' account of the decline in the Peregrine Falcon population in the South Wales valleys which was brought about by the lack of racing/feral pigeons.

Surely the important points we should be discussing are the reasons for the sudden rapid decline in pigeon numbers in that area, the effect it had on Peregrine Falcon numbers and whether this could be repeated throughout the rest of the country over a period of time.

Anthony

 

[Jos Stratford]

Direct quotes from the Royal Pigeon Racing Association report:

It can be soul destroying for a fancier who has spent much money, time and effort to see his birds killed and for there to be little legal recourse.


We do say that there should be opportunities to humanely destroy troublesome birds

Forgetting the conservation issues for a second, that stinks of a very selfish attitude -do you think it is not soul destroying for the many dedicated conservationists, who give up countless hours and spent money, to see the raptors wiped out? To the huge numbers of people who enjoy watching these raptors, is it not soul-destroying to hear another pair have been poisoned or shot? To the many non-birders, such as ramblers and walkers, who stop and watch as a raptor passes over, is their enjoyment not being degraded?



Now according to their website, the membership is as follows "The RPRA has around 2500 clubs. Members join a club which usually has between 6 and 30 members." which also according to their website equates to about 50,000 persons. Membership to conservation bodies - RSPB, over 1 million; Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, 140,000; county wildlife trusts; over 500,000 members, etc etc.

Why, for any reasons should the selfish attitudes of a minority, put forward purely to further a hobby, be allowed to override the wishes of a far greater voice against. Pure and simple, selfishness of the part of pigeon fanciers.

Then, of course, there is still the conservation issues already widely mentioned.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Its a blinking pandemic if you compare it against all convictions of which there are almost none in the first case.

Hardly - but who to point the finger at, that's the question? Take your first url for example -

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/Birdcrime_2003_tcm5-59782.pdf and the comments under the heading heading -

"Prosecutions & persecution

Between 1985 and 2003, 86 individuals were convicted for offences related to bird of prey persecution. Of these, 73 had game rearing interests, including 68 gamekeepers. The other 13 included farmers, pigeon fanciers and aviculturists."

Only 13 out of a total of 86 offences against birds of prey involved a mixture of farmers, pigeon fanciers and aviculturists. Exactly how many were pigeon fanciers is not clear but statistically it must have been between just 1 and up to 11 at most.

As 'Grousemore' so rightly says, hardly an epidemic, is it? And don't forget that these figures are for ALL species of raptor, not just Peregrine Falcons, the UK population of which, may I remind you, is what this thread is really about. Hardly fair to demonise pigeon fanciers based on this RSPB-supplied evidence, is it? Still, who said things had to be fair on BF, where 'if you don't understand it, decry it' seems to be the order of the day for some!

 

[London Birder]

Anthony do you have a source for your statement that pigeon numbers are in decline please, thanks

 

[CBB]

[QUOTE

As 'Grousemore' so rightly says, hardly an epidemic, is it? And don't forget that these figures are for ALL species of raptor, not just Peregrine Falcons, the UK population of which, may I remind you, is what this thread is really about. Hardly fair to demonise pigeon fanciers based on this RSPB-supplied evidence, is it? Still, who said things had to be fair on BF, where 'if you don't understand it, decry it' seems to be the order of the day for some![/QUOTE]


Anthony does have a point here which would be in some way supported by D. Ratcliffe when he says; 'pigeon fanciers have accounted for few peregrines compared with the gamekeepers'. However, this constant proclamation that there has only ever been one successful prosecution does not convince me (and obviously many others). How many PF's destroy nests we'll never truly know. I have said before that as we move through the next century, more people will move away from hobbies such as P Racing and hunting. Any activity that results in the killing of an animal for sport or to further their sport is now socially unacceptablle by the masses. This will only improve as people see 'the light'. This will be beneficial for raptors which will self regulate as they must have done many, many years ago anyway.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Anthony, can you give a source for this please ..

LB,

Certainly, it's simple arithmetic really!

Taken from past membership figures, the number of pigeon fanciers in the UK has already fallen more than 30% during the last 10 years and it is still falling. In percentage terms this has been matched by a similar reduction not only in the overall number of racing pigeons being bred, but also the decline in the number of prey opportunities they represent for the Peregrine Falcons.

By the same token, the UK Peregrine Falcon population is at its highest ever recorded level and is still rising. In simplistic terms, there are now more Peregrine Falcons predating on an ever-decreasing number of racing pigeons. This situation has been exacerbated in 2006 as a direct result of the greatly reduced number of pigeons being bred and raced by pigeon fanciers due to DEFRA's Avian Influenza (Bird 'Flu) restrictions which have meant that racing has been severely curtailed this season.

As regards the Feral Pigeon population, in addition to increased predation by urban-dwelling Peregrine Falcons, it is also declining as a direct result of the increasing number of local authorities who are employing companies who specialise not only in their 'removal' (that's killing in plain language!) but also in preventing them from even living in towns and cities. You need look no further than the activities of London's Ken Livingstone's attempts to eradicate the pigeons in Trafalgar Square for an example of this, even though for years Westminster Council used to actively encourage their presence by issuing a licence to the chap who sold pigeon food - for a fee, of course!

To sum up, in the future the number of feral and racing pigeons will decline for a variety of reasons, while at the same time the Peregrine Falcon population looks set to carry on increasing. The question is that without the pigeon to provide its main prey species, will the Peregrine Falcon numbers eventually suffer accordingly? Anyone who believes that it couldn't happen only needs to read 'valley boy's' very informative post earlier in this thread for the answer. In fact, without the pigeon as a food source, the Peregrine Falcon population is in danger!

Anthony

 

[London Birder]

the pigeons at Trafalgar Square have merely moved on due to lack of legal feeding, they basically had an easy existence with year round supplies of grain and covered the place in shit (up to 1,200 individuals was my last count before the cessation of feeding there) ... my local patch (which is a 10 minute walk from Traf Sq) appears to have recieved a good proportion of these birds (or at least the number there has increased since legal feeding ceased in Traf Sq) where they are still actively fed by people, every day, all day, all Livingstone has done is shuffled the pigeon pack for aesthetic reasons (i.e. greatly reduced amounts of pigeon crap in Traf Sq) by banning feeding (Harris's Hawks didn't work) ...

Anthony, pigeon racing is just a hobby for goodness sake ... our Peregrines are a part of our natural heritage!

BTO population estimates for the UK put Peregrine numbers at c.1,400 pairs (generally single brooded and still persecuted) and pigeon numbers at 100,000 to 250,000 pairs (multi-brooded) ... the European population estimates give figures of 11,000-24,000 pairs of Peregrine and 6.8-10 million pairs of pigeons, go figure! ... your clearly more concerned with having one of your birds predated than any impact Peregrine will have on ferals in general, which is surely negligable and likely to remain so even if they surpass the 2,000 pair mark in the UK.

if you lose a racer to a Peregrine (though I'm far from sure how you'd know), simply accept it as an occupational hazzard!

 

[Richard D]

LB,

...
As regards the Feral Pigeon population, in addition to increased predation by urban-dwelling Peregrine Falcons,
...
Anthony

Anthony have you any evidence that predation has any effect on breeding population levels, or is this just a wild guess? I can't think of a single example of a raptor having been shown to affect breeding population levels - it does go against most current scientific thinking.

Richard

 

[Andrew Rowlands]

The question is that without the pigeon to provide its main prey species, will the Peregrine Falcon numbers eventually suffer accordingly? Anyone who believes that it couldn't happen only needs to read 'valley boy's' very informative post earlier in this thread for the answer. In fact, without the pigeon as a food source, the Peregrine Falcon population is in danger!

Rubbish!

Anthony, you seem to be taking one man's opinion of the situation in a very small area of the UK as fact!

What makes you think that all Peregrines in the UK are reliant on feral or tame pigeons?

 

[CBB]

Rubbish!

Anthony, you seem to be taking one man's opinion of the situation in a very small area of the UK as fact!

What makes you think that all Peregrines in the UK are reliant on feral or tame pigeons?

Refer to D.Ratcliffe's 'Peregrine Falcon'. The peregrine will take prey depending on its availability. For example, in the Scottish Highlands, pigeons account for only 25% of prey taken. This surely shows the bird to be adaptable. It has been reported to take 137+ species in the UK and 210+ species in Europe.

Chris

 

[Anthony Morton]

Anthony have you any evidence that predation has any effect on breeding population levels, or is this just a wild guess? I can't think of a single example of a raptor having been shown to affect breeding population levels - it does go against most current scientific thinking.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Perhaps that's why the idea is so foreign in some quarters. It's certainly not a wild guess either - what's to say that the experience noted in the South Wales valleys by 'valley boy' this year could not be repeated anywhere in the UK in time?

In my view it would take either a brave man or a fool to suggest otherwise!

Anthony

 

[Jos Stratford]

Hi Richard,

Perhaps that's why the idea is so foreign in some quarters. It's certainly not a wild guess either - what's to say that the experience noted in the South Wales valleys by 'valley boy' this year could not be repeated anywhere in the UK in time?

In my view it would take either a brave man or a fool to suggest otherwise!

Anthony

Anthony, you constantly jump down people's throats for making suppositions regarding the Peregrine-Racing Pigeon issue, but are equally happy to make your own.

The sentence 'In my view it would take either a brave man or a fool to suggest otherwise!' can equally be applied to the widely held view that pigeon fanciers are responsible for the destruction of numbers of Peregrines every year.

Do you have no opinion on post 188?

 

[Anthony Morton]

Rubbish!

Ah! - I see your break from BF has done nothing to improve your temper.

Anthony, you seem to be taking one man's opinion of the situation in a very small area of the UK as fact!

And why not? Surely you aren't suggesting that 'valley boy' isn't telling the truth? Don't forget that the South Wales valleys are/were one of the UK's Peregrine Falcon hot-spots, so why couldn't it happen elsewhere?

What makes you think that all Peregrines in the UK are reliant on feral or tame pigeons?

I'm sorry to answer a question with another question, but what evidence is there to suggest that, in percentage terms and based on weight and numbers, racing/feral pigeons do not represent the largest individual prey species of the UK's Peregrine Falcon population? If not, which species does?

 

[CBB]

I'm sorry to answer a question with another question, but what evidence is there to suggest that, in percentage terms and based on weight and numbers, racing/feral pigeons do not represent the largest individual prey species of the UK's Peregrine Falcon population? If not, which species does?[/QUOTE]


Anthony. Refer to post 196. Does it not imply that they will take what is most common in a particular area? If it is pigeons then so be it. However, if it's not then so be it too.