Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[Andrew Rowlands]

Ah! - I see your break from BF has done nothing to improve your temper.

More supposition ... no surprise there.

And why not? Surely you aren't suggesting that 'valley boy' isn't telling the truth? Don't forget that the South Wales valleys are/were one of the UK's Peregrine Falcon hot-spots, so why couldn't it happen elsewhere?

Where are you getting these 'hot-spot' ideas from?

I'm sorry to answer a question with another question, but what evidence is there to suggest that, in percentage terms and based on weight and numbers, racing/feral pigeons do not represent the largest individual prey species of the UK's Peregrine Falcon population? If not, which species does?

Oh dear, you haven't been reading the replies again, have you?

cbb quoted Radcliffe earlier - 137 species recorded in the UK, 210+ in Europe. As I've told you before, the main reason that the British Isles has such a high population is the millions of waders and wildfowl that use these islands as a stopover. "East Atlantic Flyway" (see eg. http://ld.panda.org/about_wwf/where_we_work/europe/what_we_do/ne_atlantic/area/index.cfm ).

As you well know, there has been no wholescale survey on the UK's Peregrine Population, would you or your friends like to start fundraising for one? I doubt it very much, you know that it would not be in your interest, would it? - you prefer to read and quote from tiny surveys and reports from very specific areas that are loaded.

 

[James Lowther]

The question is that without the pigeon to provide its main prey species, will the Peregrine Falcon numbers eventually suffer accordingly? Anyone who believes that it couldn't happen only needs to read 'valley boy's' very informative post earlier in this thread for the answer. In fact, without the pigeon as a food source, the Peregrine Falcon population is in danger!

Anthony

Anthony,
you're barking up the wrong tree there!!
An eminent thinker on this subject once said..

"If and/or when we arrive at the point where the Feral Pigeons are reduced to a level at which they no longer represent its main prey species, the Peregrine Falcon will simply diversify and select another species, such as the Collared Dove for example. The fact that all the Feral Pigeons have been wiped out will have no bearing whatsoever on the Peregrine Falcon population which, if anything, will continue to grow until such times as ALL its various prey species are exhausted. Then, and only then, will the population of Peregrines begin to decline simply through the lack of sufficient numbers of suitable prey species!"

and who are you to argue against that!

given that the peregrine has been recorded predating over 100 different species in the UK, i reckon they'll be safe for a while yet!!

:t:

James

 

[Jane Turner]

The diet of Peregrine is perhaps best described as allsorts. Sorry couldn't resist that!

Prey may vary from year to year, but appears to be drawn mainly from species occurring commonly within a few km of nesting place. In inland regions of Scottish Highlands, Red Grouse Lagopus lagopus (18·2% of total items) and feral C. livia (16·7%) constituted major prey; in coastal areas, Puffin Fratercula arctica, Rock Dove C. livia, Fulmar Fulmarus glacialis, and Guillemot Uria aalge most common prey. Over rest of British mainland, feral C. livia made up 25% of total prey, thrushes and S. vulgaris 45·9%, waders 8·7%, and L. lagopus 3·8% (Ratcliffe 1963). In northern Ireland, feral C. livia constituted 61% of total items, 68% on sub-coastal districts and 35·2% on coast, where gulls and auks (Alcidae) accounted for 42%

 

[Richard D]

Hi Richard,

Perhaps that's why the idea is so foreign in some quarters. It's certainly not a wild guess either - what's to say that the experience noted in the South Wales valleys by 'valley boy' this year could not be repeated anywhere in the UK in time?

In my view it would take either a brave man or a fool to suggest otherwise!

Anthony

Maybe I misread Valley Boy's post but I don't recall him providing evidence that Peregrines had reduced the breeding population of Feral Pigeons.

 

[nirofo]

LB,

Certainly, it's simple arithmetic really!

Taken from past membership figures, the number of pigeon fanciers in the UK has already fallen more than 30% during the last 10 years and it is still falling. In percentage terms this has been matched by a similar reduction not only in the overall number of racing pigeons being bred, but also the decline in the number of prey opportunities they represent for the Peregrine Falcons.

By the same token, the UK Peregrine Falcon population is at its highest ever recorded level and is still rising. In simplistic terms, there are now more Peregrine Falcons predating on an ever-decreasing number of racing pigeons. This situation has been exacerbated in 2006 as a direct result of the greatly reduced number of pigeons being bred and raced by pigeon fanciers due to DEFRA's Avian Influenza (Bird 'Flu) restrictions which have meant that racing has been severely curtailed this season.

As regards the Feral Pigeon population, in addition to increased predation by urban-dwelling Peregrine Falcons, it is also declining as a direct result of the increasing number of local authorities who are employing companies who specialise not only in their 'removal' (that's killing in plain language!) but also in preventing them from even living in towns and cities. You need look no further than the activities of London's Ken Livingstone's attempts to eradicate the pigeons in Trafalgar Square for an example of this, even though for years Westminster Council used to actively encourage their presence by issuing a licence to the chap who sold pigeon food - for a fee, of course!

To sum up, in the future the number of feral and racing pigeons will decline for a variety of reasons, while at the same time the Peregrine Falcon population looks set to carry on increasing. The question is that without the pigeon to provide its main prey species, will the Peregrine Falcon numbers eventually suffer accordingly? Anyone who believes that it couldn't happen only needs to read 'valley boy's' very informative post earlier in this thread for the answer. In fact, without the pigeon as a food source, the Peregrine Falcon population is in danger!

Anthony

FACT REMAINS ANTHONY, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FERAL PIGEONS IN THE UK, THEY ARE HARDLY DECLINING, THEY PRODUCE YOUNG AT A HIGHER RATE THAN THE PEREGRINES CAN PREDATE. DONT FORGET, THE FERAL PIGEON HAS A BREEDING SEASON THAT RUNS ABOUT 9 MONTH'S OF THE YEAR, IT CAN HAVE AS MANY AS 4 BROODS OF 2 YOUNG PER BROOD.

I don't doubt that the Peregrines in the Welsh valley's are declining as the pigeon population declines, would you live in an area where you couldn't get any food. The RP population was artificially high in that area of the UK due to the number of pigeon fanciers, most of whom were miners or quarrymen, as these people left the area for whatever reason the number of lofts diminished. You'll see a similar pattern right through the coalfield areas, many miners had pigeon lofts, there are far fewer now.

The main and obvious reason that very few PF's, or anyone else for that matter, are convicted in court for wildlife crimes is because they weren't caught at it, or there was insufficient positive evidence to obtain a conviction. We all know how difficult that is in the remote places where these birds nest, where 24 hour watches are impractical if not impossible. That doesn't mean that the crimes never happened, they have happened and are still happening! You may be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the people who have little or no experience of Raptors, but there are many of us who have and know what the score is with Raptor persecution by both PF's and others. Your constant rebuttal of the facts proves nothing to the ornithologists who know better, the fact that the RPRA are attempting to obtain permission for a cull of troublesome Peregrines shows the shear arrogance that they hold themselves in, they believe they have the right to declare a Peregrine troublesome and therefore eliminate it from existance!! Well I would like to inform the RPRA that there are over 2 million birders in the UK compared to <50,000 PF's, I think that majority would only too willingly go against you obtaining that permission, what gives you the right to kill a Schedule One protected wild and rare species of bird, how would you like it if the birders came along in the night and shot you RP's in the loft, you'd soon be up in arms and calling for the law to do something about it!

Quote:
"By the same token, the UK Peregrine Falcon population is at its highest ever recorded level and is still rising. In simplistic terms, there are now more Peregrine Falcons predating on an ever-decreasing number of racing pigeons".

This statement doesn't add up, how can the Peregrine population increase if as you say their main food supply, (RP's) are decreasing as a direct result of the greatly reduced number of pigeons being bred and raced by pigeon fanciers? Don't you think there may be some other factor you have overlooked that accounts for as you say their continued increase, maybe it's because of the huge amount of other available prey that the Peregrines can turn to in times of need.

nirofo.

 

[pduxon]

i believe the birds at Derby Cathedral have been known to capture Woodcock. I presume therefore the birds aren't just hanging around Derby terrorisng local R***** P****** as Woodcock isn't something you would expect to find in a city centre

 

[London Birder]

The diet of Peregrine is perhaps best described as allsorts. Sorry couldn't resist that!

Prey may vary from year to year, but appears to be drawn mainly from species occurring commonly within a few km of nesting place. In inland regions of Scottish Highlands, Red Grouse Lagopus lagopus (18·2% of total items) and feral C. livia (16·7%) constituted major prey; in coastal areas, Puffin Fratercula arctica, Rock Dove C. livia, Fulmar Fulmarus glacialis, and Guillemot Uria aalge most common prey. Over rest of British mainland, feral C. livia made up 25% of total prey, thrushes and S. vulgaris 45·9%, waders 8·7%, and L. lagopus 3·8% (Ratcliffe 1963). In northern Ireland, feral C. livia constituted 61% of total items, 68% on sub-coastal districts and 35·2% on coast, where gulls and auks (Alcidae) accounted for 42%

it's all there in Jane's post ....

now, what losses of racers are directly attributable to Peregrines and how has it been determined exactly Anthony?

 

[Collster]

Hi nirofo,

I'm sorry, but what you are suggesting is still the complete opposite to what actually happened according to 'valley boy's' account of the decline in the Peregrine Falcon population in the South Wales valleys which was brought about by the lack of racing/feral pigeons.

Surely the important points we should be discussing are the reasons for the sudden rapid decline in pigeon numbers in that area, the effect it had on Peregrine Falcon numbers and whether this could be repeated throughout the rest of the country over a period of time.

Anthony

When i said that perry numbers had tapered off in some areas, i have to clarify a point and say that Perry numbers in these areas were among the highest in Britain so it was never going to be sustained at those levels locally.The reason for the rapid decline in pigeon numbers is directly related to the fact that there is only a fraction of fanciers in this area than there was say ten to fifteen years ago. Also race routes have been changed so these birds are offf menu, dont forget Anthony it wasn't just locally kept pigeons feeding the Perrys. Most weekends was a bonanza with groups going through

 

[markgrubb]

I'm sorry to answer a question with another question, but what evidence is there to suggest that, in percentage terms and based on weight and numbers, racing/feral pigeons do not represent the largest individual prey species of the UK's Peregrine Falcon population? If not, which species does?

BWP suggests it's down to what food is available locally

Europe wide it states in some biotopes feral pigeons may not predominate and may even be missing

Back to the UK

Prey may vary from year to year, but appears to be drawn mainly from species occuring commonly within a few km of nesting places
In inland regions of the Scottish Highlands, Red Grouse 18% and feral pigeons 16% constitute major prey. In coastal areas puffin, rock dove ,fulmar and guillemot most common prey. Over rest of British mainland feral pigeon 25%, thrushes and starlings 46%.

 

[London Birder]

pigeonracing.com claim up to 10 pigeons are required per eyrie per day ... well I've watched eyries from dawn to dusk, as many of us undoubtedly have, and that statement is complete unadulterated cobblers ...

 

[mrpjdavis]

Between 1985 and 2003, 86 individuals were convicted for offences related to bird of prey persecution. Of these, 73 had game rearing interests, including 68 gamekeepers. The other 13 included farmers, pigeon fanciers and aviculturists."

Only 13 out of a total of 86 offences against birds of prey involved a mixture of farmers, pigeon fanciers and aviculturists. Exactly how many were pigeon fanciers is not clear but statistically it must have been between just 1 and up to 11 at most.

As 'Grousemore' so rightly says, hardly an epidemic, is it? And don't forget that these figures are for ALL species of raptor, not just Peregrine Falcons, the UK population of which, may I remind you, is what this thread is really about. Hardly fair to demonise pigeon fanciers based on this RSPB-supplied evidence, is it? Still, who said things had to be fair on BF, where 'if you don't understand it, decry it' seems to be the order of the day for some!

The clear up rate for burglaries is 12% and that is with a huge amount of available evidence - DNA, eyewitnesses, grasses, confessions etc. Using the logic of your argument (that very few convictions for persecution of peregrines are achieved) implies that 88% of burglaries never happened.

 

[CBB]

pigeonracing.com claim up to 10 pigeons are required per eyrie per day ... well I've watched eyries from dawn to dusk, as many of us undoubtedly have, and that statement is complete unadulterated cobblers ...

I have to agree Des. Have these people ever watched an eyrie? We'd have the Rt Hon Mr Blair on about the shocking state of peregrine obesity in Britain. What evidence do they use to support this? (Sorry for using the evidence cliche)

Chris

 

[London Birder]

I have to agree Des. Have these people ever watched an eyrie? ... Chris

I doubt very much they have Chris, yet these are the sort of people who are happy to denigrate sound information from people such as Valley Boy who've worked with Peregrines pretty darn intensively ... I just don't get it!

another thing I completely fail to understand is how they come to the conclusion that their hobby is something so important that it may warrant the destruction of individuals of a wild, and heavily protected, species ...

I'd still be keen to know how these fanciers know what percentage of their lost birds fall prey to Peregrines ... do they equip them with on board cams?

the whole thing smacks of hidden agenda (well actually not so hidden), falsehoods, woeful ecological understanding when it comes to predator/prey dynamics (mainly with regards to the rather lame songbird concerns) and selective and twisted usage of facts for their own selfish purposes ...

by all means enjoy pigeon racing, fancying or whatever the hell else you can do with a pigeon but why not simply accept that losses will occur due to predation, accidents and birds which simply do not return home for whatever other reason ... factor it in and leave the raptors well alone.

 

[nirofo]

pigeonracing.com claim up to 10 pigeons are required per eyrie per day ... well I've watched eyries from dawn to dusk, as many of us undoubtedly have, and that statement is complete unadulterated cobblers ...

I agree, I've watched many Peregrines eyries for weeks on end, some from long term hide setups and I can honestly say even with a full brood of young in the eyrie it would be more like 10 pigeons per week, that's assuming they are feeding nothing but pigeons of course.

Where do the PF's dream this rubbish up from, they must think we are all as daft as them!

Incidentally, Peregrines will hunt their prey many miles from the eyrie, I've known them bring in prey items from at least 10 miles away.

nirofo.

 

[Collster]

pigeonracing.com claim up to 10 pigeons are required per eyrie per day ... well I've watched eyries from dawn to dusk, as many of us undoubtedly have, and that statement is complete unadulterated cobblers ...

As someone who has watched eyries specifically to record the numbers and species being taken back i can say that, that figure is inflated. Even in the mid to late ninetys when things were in full flow there was never that amount. Some saturdays i would see more RP brought back, as there were flocks passing through racing i would expect no different, same as in the autumn when the winter thrushes arrive they have it, same with the woodcock. In fact if there are large numbers of almost any species hanging about an area then they are going to be predated by raptors, its what they do.

 

[Jane Turner]

The male of the Birkenhead pair takes a mid-sized wader every day in the march-April period - usually a Knot, sometimes a Grey Plover if he is feeling ambitious. I don't udsually see him hunting when the waders move on.

 

[Collster]

Hi nirofo,

I'm sorry, but what you are suggesting is still the complete opposite to what actually happened according to 'valley boy's' account of the decline in the Peregrine Falcon population in the South Wales valleys which was brought about by the lack of racing/feral pigeons.

Surely the important points we should be discussing are the reasons for the sudden rapid decline in pigeon numbers in that area, the effect it had on Peregrine Falcon numbers and whether this could be repeated throughout the rest of the country over a period of time.

Anthony

Anthony, may i suggest you read and quote all i say if you are going to try and use my postings to bolster your arguement, the thought of which makes me want to be sick. There is quite a bit more i could reveal but its going to get twisted to suit your own ends.I have no problem supporting what i say and will pm info to anyone without a vested interest in RP. So lets summarise. The population in mid glam grew faster than would have been normal due to all the fat racers around, this bolstered a diet which included a variety of other birds. Lots of fanciers stopped keeping birds in this region so the over inflated LOCAL perry population could not sustain its levels in this area. They have not wiped out all RP and feral pigeons and as Nirofo said will not stay in an area that can't support them.They are still being targeted every season by fanciers, this is fact and i dont care how many times you say prove it, as i've gone through your list of other suspects and eliminated them- you prove to me that they are not doing it

 

[Osprey_watcher]

Come on then Anthony. I can see you lurking.

Answer the question.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Reply as requested by Jos Stratford in Posting #198.

Direct quotes from the Royal Pigeon Racing Association report:

It can be soul destroying for a fancier who has spent much money, time and effort to see his birds killed and for there to be little legal recourse.


We do say that there should be opportunities to humanely destroy troublesome birds

Forgetting the conservation issues for a second, that stinks of a very selfish attitude -do you think it is not soul destroying for the many dedicated conservationists, who give up countless hours and spent money, to see the raptors wiped out? To the huge numbers of people who enjoy watching these raptors, is it not soul-destroying to hear another pair have been poisoned or shot? To the many non-birders, such as ramblers and walkers, who stop and watch as a raptor passes over, is their enjoyment not being degraded?

Please read the two quotes you have selected from the RPRA report 'Birds of prey and racing pigeons' again and you will see they refer specifically to a fancier SEEING his birds killed. Surely you can understand that for this to happen the attack would have to take place either very close to (or even inside!) a pigeon loft situated on the fanciers property and while he was present. As an experienced birder your own common sense should tell you that this mostly refers to attacks made by Sparrowhawks due to their wider UK distribution.

As the law stands at present, if a Sparrowhawk attacks one of my pigeons while it is either in, on or around my loft and is ripping strips of flesh from the still living bird, I am legally allowed to do precisely NOTHING to defend it. And if the same Sparrowhawk becomes a visitor on (say) a regular daily basis, this then constitutes what is described in the report as a 'troublesome bird' and there should be the legal provision to destroy it. This is NOT the case as the law stands at the moment.

Now according to their website, the membership is as follows "The RPRA has around 2500 clubs. Members join a club which usually has between 6 and 30 members." which also according to their website equates to about 50,000 persons. Membership to conservation bodies - RSPB, over 1 million; Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, 140,000; county wildlife trusts; over 500,000 members, etc etc.

Why, for any reasons should the selfish attitudes of a minority, put forward purely to further a hobby, be allowed to override the wishes of a far greater voice against. Pure and simple, selfishness of the part of pigeon fanciers.

That's sounds like a classic case of 'my dad's bigger than your dad' to me, Jos. And I wonder how many times you've also been told that size isn't everything.

Onwards and upwards!

 

[Farnboro John]

Reply as requested by Jos Stratford in Posting #198.



Please read the two quotes you have selected from the RPRA report 'Birds of prey and racing pigeons' again and you will see they refer specifically to a fancier SEEING his birds killed. Surely you can understand that for this to happen the attack would have to take place either very close to (or even inside!) a pigeon loft situated on the fanciers property and while he was present. As an experienced birder your own common sense should tell you that this mostly refers to attacks made by Sparrowhawks due to their wider UK distribution.

As the law stands at present, if a Sparrowhawk attacks one of my pigeons while it is either in, on or around my loft and is ripping strips of flesh from the still living bird, I am legally allowed to do precisely NOTHING to defend it. And if the same Sparrowhawk becomes a visitor on (say) a regular daily basis, this then constitutes what is described in the report as a 'troublesome bird' and there should be the legal provision to destroy it. This is NOT the case as the law stands at the moment.




That's sounds like a classic case of 'my dad's bigger than your dad' to me, Jos. And I wonder how many times you've also been told that size isn't everything.

Onwards and upwards!

It is of course our democratically controlled governmental system and law that permits tiny minorities like PFs to not disappear under a huge wave of disapproving conservationists - if you don't like an aspect of the law then get a big enough lobby to get it changed so the law works in your favour - oh dear, I forgot, there are only just more of you than there are Peregrines.

Maybe size is more important than you think.