Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[CBB]

'I see where you are coming from Anthony'. However, as I've just pointed out, we are not sure in what way the term 'see is being used.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Anthony,
you're barking up the wrong tree there!!
An eminent thinker on this subject once said..

"If and/or when we arrive at the point where the Feral Pigeons are reduced to a level at which they no longer represent its main prey species, the Peregrine Falcon will simply diversify and select another species, such as the Collared Dove for example. The fact that all the Feral Pigeons have been wiped out will have no bearing whatsoever on the Peregrine Falcon population which, if anything, will continue to grow until such times as ALL its various prey species are exhausted. Then, and only then, will the population of Peregrines begin to decline simply through the lack of sufficient numbers of suitable prey species!"

and who are you to argue against that!

Just a cotton-pickin' minute there Jimbo, if you're going to quote from my previous postings, then what about the usual 'quote' credit?

Still, you did refer to me as an 'eminent thinker' and although I must take your word for it that I'm eminent, I willingly plead guilty to being a thinker!

given that the peregrine has been recorded predating over 100 different species in the UK, i reckon they'll be safe for a while yet!!

An interesting comment - but no more than that. It would be much more meaningful to know the identity of the top 5 species on the list, together with the percentage of the Peregrine Falcon's total diet each one represents. Can you (or anyone else) enlighten me, please?

Anthony

 

[James Lowther]

sorry Anthony,
didn't want to embarass you by explicitly pointing out you were using an argument the exact diametric opposite of your licorice allsort model of peregrine/prey dynamics.

 

[Anthony Morton]

The diet of Peregrine is perhaps best described as allsorts. Sorry couldn't resist that!

Prey may vary from year to year, but appears to be drawn mainly from species occurring commonly within a few km of nesting place. In inland regions of Scottish Highlands, Red Grouse Lagopus lagopus (18·2% of total items) and feral C. livia (16·7%) constituted major prey; in coastal areas, Puffin Fratercula arctica, Rock Dove C. livia, Fulmar Fulmarus glacialis, and Guillemot Uria aalge most common prey. Over rest of British mainland, feral C. livia made up 25% of total prey, thrushes and S. vulgaris 45·9%, waders 8·7%, and L. lagopus 3·8% (Ratcliffe 1963). In northern Ireland, feral C. livia constituted 61% of total items, 68% on sub-coastal districts and 35·2% on coast, where gulls and auks (Alcidae) accounted for 42%

Jane,

Only just noticed this after replying to James Lowther's earlier post. Some interesting figures in which dear old Columba livia seems to feature prominently. However, these statistics are all region specific - are there any figures which give an overall view of Peregrine Falcon predation by species over the whole of the UK, please? And if so, would I be right in thinking that C. livia tops the list nationally?

Anthony

 

[CBB]

Just a cotton-pickin' minute there Jimbo, if you're going to quote from my previous postings, then what about the usual 'quote' credit?

Still, you did refer to me as an 'eminent thinker' and although I must take your word for it that I'm eminent, I willingly plead guilty to being a thinker!



An interesting comment - but no more than that. It would be much more meaningful to know the identity of the top 5 species on the list, together with the percentage of the Peregrine Falcon's total diet each one represents. Can you (or anyone else) enlighten me, please?

Anthony

Depends what part of the country you want to know about. As pointed out, it's different in each area.

Chris

 

[Anthony Morton]

Maybe I misread Valley Boy's post but I don't recall him providing evidence that Peregrines had reduced the breeding population of Feral Pigeons.

He was quoting from personal observation as I understand it.

 

[Anthony Morton]

i believe the birds at Derby Cathedral have been known to capture Woodcock. I presume therefore the birds aren't just hanging around Derby terrorisng local R***** P****** as Woodcock isn't something you would expect to find in a city centre

Fair enough, Pete, but what's the ratio between the number of Woodcock and Feral/Racing Pigeons predated? Is it 1 : 100, 1 : 500, 1 : 1,000 or even more?

 

[London Birder]

what the hell does it matter !

this is all smoke and mirrors Anthony, you're the guys who want the change in the law so that the occasional raptor can be destroyed for doing what comes naturally to it!

forget percentages, are they likely to dictate a sea-change in the mentality that goes 'it's eating my pigeon, I should be able to kill it'?

IT'S A HOBBY, a raptor taking a pigeon or anything else for that matter is SURVIVAL ...

 

[Anthony Morton]

When i said that perry numbers had tapered off in some areas, i have to clarify a point and say that Perry numbers in these areas were among the highest in Britain so it was never going to be sustained at those levels locally.The reason for the rapid decline in pigeon numbers is directly related to the fact that there is only a fraction of fanciers in this area than there was say ten to fifteen years ago. Also race routes have been changed so these birds are offf menu, dont forget Anthony it wasn't just locally kept pigeons feeding the Perrys. Most weekends was a bonanza with groups going through

So is it correct to say that a combination of the reduction in 'local' pigeon numbers caused by fanciers giving up, coupled with a change in racing routes which has taken away pigeons that used to pass through, has had a noticeable effect by reducing the number of Peregrine Falcons your area can support. Is that a fair statement of how much they relied on pigeons and, if so, why can't the same thing happen elsewhere in the UK in the next 10 - 15 years?

 

[pduxon]

Fair enough, Pete, but what's the ratio between the number of Woodcock and Feral/Racing Pigeons predated? Is it 1 : 100, 1 : 500, 1 : 1,000 or even more?

No idea, I do know the Derby bird has been known to take greenfinch, great spotted woodpecker, starling, blackbird, swift, lapwing, woodcock, teal, little grebe and moorhen.

I believe a study of one of the Bristol sites showed Feral's accounting for <1%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/features/198index.shtml

Anthony I think you accept that "some" fanciers are persecuting Peregrines. We don't the numbers etc but you concede this is happening which is fair enough.

To me it is simple the Peregrine is a wild bird trying to survive. I can imagine it is "insert phrase of your choice" to lose a prize bird but ultimately that is something you have to accept.

 

[London Birder]

Anthony ... are you concerned over the fact that Peregrines will predate Feral Pigeons out of existence or merely that pigeon fanciers birds are occasionally predated?

can you answer that please?

Also, can you possibly shed some light on the comment made by pigeonracing.com that up to 10 pigeons are required at an eyrie per day?

If I let my budgie out of it's cage for a swift fly around and it gets hammered by a Sparrowhawk, precisely who's fault is that?

 

[Anthony Morton]

it's all there in Jane's post ....

now, what losses of racers are directly attributable to Peregrines and how has it been determined exactly Anthony?

Certainly Jane's post was very informative and I have already asked her if it's possible to have predation figures in percentage terms for the whole UK.

As to what losses of racing pigeons are directly attributable to Peregrine Falcons nationally, I really don't know. I suppose I'll get accused of making inflammatory comments, but there is a way of arriving at a very accurate answer - but only if the Schedule One Licence Holders, Raptor Protection Groups and the bird-related agencies all have a sudden change of heart!

Each and every racing pigeon carries a closed ring bearing a unique number on its leg. By collecting these rings from in and around each nest site it would be a simple matter to provide not only an accurate number of racing pigeons predated at each nest site but also provide much more information about the pigeon and its owner. If nothing else, it is useful to the fanciers to know what happened to them.

This is not possible at present, however, because although the rings are routinely collected from each nest site they are NOT returned to the various racing pigeon unions. Wouldn't it make a refreshing change if all the rings collected in this way were returned to their owners? The fact that they are not only leads to mistrust, suspicion and accusations that those finding them have something to hide - possibly the exceptionally high number of racing pigeons being predated for example!

If my comments above are not correct, then those BF members involved in monitoring Peregrine Falcon nest sites might like to say exactly why the racing pigeon rings they find can't be returned and so give a reasonably accurate figure of the number being predated. After all, what could they possibly have to hide?

 

[Anthony Morton]

Depends what part of the country you want to know about. As pointed out, it's different in each area.

Chris

In which case the UK as a whole will do nicely, thanks.

 

[Anthony Morton]

what the hell does it matter !

this is all smoke and mirrors Anthony, you're the guys who want the change in the law so that the occasional raptor can be destroyed for doing what comes naturally to it!

forget percentages, are they likely to dictate a sea-change in the mentality that goes 'it's eating my pigeon, I should be able to kill it'?

IT'S A HOBBY, a raptor taking a pigeon or anything else for that matter is SURVIVAL ...

What the hell does what matter? I'm sorry, LB but it would help if you identified which posting you are referring to.

 

[Collster]

So is it correct to say that a combination of the reduction in 'local' pigeon numbers caused by fanciers giving up, coupled with a change in racing routes which has taken away pigeons that used to pass through, has had a noticeable effect by reducing the number of Peregrine Falcons your area can support. Is that a fair statement of how much they relied on pigeons and, if so, why can't the same thing happen elsewhere in the UK in the next 10 - 15 years?

As i said that the Perry population was higher HERE than it would have been without the RP being abundant in such numbers. Any fall in this area would be mirrored in other areas( few) where RP were the bulk of the prey. This obviously isn't going to happen in areas where there is an abundance of other prey be it waders, gulls , whatever, more than can generally be found in the uplands of Glamorgan.They obviously ate RP around here, what would you prefer a nice fat well fed RP or a jackdaw.If there wasn't the number of lofts about when Perry numbers started to recover then the population wouldn't have been so big that it couldn't sustain the numbers. So whatever way you look at it PF around this way were responsible for that exagerated increase. You take your chances with nature Anthony and im sure when a maxium figure is attained( if they are not interfered with) the Perry population will level out. Its leveled out down here but i can still walk to ten Perry sites in a few hours :t:

 

[Osprey_watcher]

The answer is easy.

Even up the odds when the RPs are racing through perry territory.
1. Equip every RP with a HUD and 360 degree radar.
2. Every RP should carry 2 PFS-AAM (Peregrine Falcon Seeking- Air to Air missiles).

Everyones happy Ycept the perrys of course.
o

 

[Anthony Morton]

No idea, I do know the Derby bird has been known to take greenfinch, great spotted woodpecker, starling, blackbird, swift, lapwing, woodcock, teal, little grebe and moorhen.

I believe a study of one of the Bristol sites showed Feral's accounting for <1%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/features/198index.shtml

Anthony I think you accept that "some" fanciers are persecuting Peregrines. We don't the numbers etc but you concede this is happening which is fair enough.

To me it is simple the Peregrine is a wild bird trying to survive. I can imagine it is "insert phrase of your choice" to lose a prize bird but ultimately that is something you have to accept.

Exactly, Pete - but that answer certainly isn't likely to satisfy those who either don't, or won't understand this and prefer to constantly take the 'pith'.

And yes, I DO agree that predation is, and always has been, an accepted fact of life in pigeon racing but I am not talking about isolated cases. I'm referring to those situations where in some areas (NOT mine I hasten to add!) every time a fancier opens his pigeon loft his birds are attacked and either killed, mauled or scattered to the four winds until finally unable to stand the carnage any longer they give up their hobby. This is exactly what is happening in the South Wales valleys, as 'valley boy' will hopefully confirm - that's if he hasn't changed his mind!

 

[Richard D]

He was quoting from personal observation as I understand it.

I've just re-read his observations and I still cannot see where he links the decline in Pigeon numbers to predation by Peregrines - he suggests the reverse i.e. reduction in prey reduces predators within that area, but not that predation reduces breeding populations of prey.

 

[Collster]

Certainly Jane's post was very informative and I have already asked her if it's possible to have predation figures in percentage terms for the whole UK.

As to what losses of racing pigeons are directly attributable to Peregrine Falcons nationally, I really don't know. I suppose I'll get accused of making inflammatory comments, but there is a way of arriving at a very accurate answer - but only if the Schedule One Licence Holders, Raptor Protection Groups and the bird-related agencies all have a sudden change of heart!

Each and every racing pigeon carries a closed ring bearing a unique number on its leg. By collecting these rings from in and around each nest site it would be a simple matter to provide not only an accurate number of racing pigeons predated at each nest site but also provide much more information about the pigeon and its owner. If nothing else, it is useful to the fanciers to know what happened to them.

This is not possible at present, however, because although the rings are routinely collected from each nest site they are NOT returned to the various racing pigeon unions. Wouldn't it make a refreshing change if all the rings collected in this way were returned to their owners? The fact that they are not only leads to mistrust, suspicion and accusations that those finding them have something to hide - possibly the exceptionally high number of racing pigeons being predated for example!

If my comments above are not correct, then those BF members involved in monitoring Peregrine Falcon nest sites might like to say exactly why the racing pigeon rings they find can't be returned and so give a reasonably accurate figure of the number being predated. After all, what could they possibly have to hide?

As there are people on ebay willing to buy these used rings , may i suggest you keep an eye open as i have some 1908 rings, war year rings and an assortment of others that will be going on sale to fund a new metal detector to find more old rings... What are the numbers on your birds rings, you never know i might have a couple in the jar.Why should we share all this information with the Unions when it is obviously going to be used to back up requests for a cull, no matter what number of rings were returned. If you want to fund my winter searches on wet and dangerous crags retrieving these rings pm and we'll talk :'D If you want a true number of RP predated nationally the unions should fund it as im sure there are the people available to carry it out, that way you would be entitled to the results. You or the unions are not entitled to any information gathered by raptor workers under their own steam, and it shows your arrogance to expect people to put in long hours, pay their own way getting to these sites then hand it over to you lot for Fanny adams, get real !

 

[Collster]

Exactly, Pete - but that answer certainly isn't likely to satisfy those who either don't, or won't understand this and prefer to constantly take the 'pith'.

And yes, I DO agree that predation is, and always has been, an accepted fact of life in pigeon racing but I am not talking about isolated cases. I'm referring to those situations where in some areas (NOT mine I hasten to add!) every time a fancier opens his pigeon loft his birds are attacked and either killed, mauled or scattered to the four winds until finally unable to stand the carnage any longer they give up their hobby. This is exactly what is happening in the South Wales valleys, as 'valley boy' will hopefully confirm - that's if he hasn't changed his mind!

Anthony, the fanciers down this way were predominantly old miners, unfortunately due to a shorter life expectancy through working in the pit most of these people are expired. There isnt generally much of a take up of the hobby by the younger element so i think this is why the numbers have dropped.As for them giving up because they can't stop the carnage that aint true- they just started killing Perrys to even it up