Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[London Birder]

LB,

I've only got a limited amount of time today, but I promised you a reply to this posting which I will keep - despite some of your more recent uncomplimentary comments. So to (hopefully!) avoid the Boo-Boys and the nit-pickers, let me state that what follows is not taken from any dusty peer-reviewed reference works but rather from comments overheard or snippets of articles/letters read in the Fancy press.

Local experiments have been carried out to determine whether the choice of BOP's predating racing pigeons was influenced by colour. Believing that dark coloured birds were less likely to be predated, one fancier kept two teams of equal numbers, one of all dark coloured pigeons and the other containing light coloured birds. However the local Peregrine Falcons took equal numbers from each team, so he concluded that in his case the colour of the prey had no bearing on predation.

Contrary to your comments, I have also seen it suggested that pied racing pigeons, i.e those with varying degrees of white plumage, are LESS likely to be predated, not more so. This is thought to be because the white colouring breaks up the outline of the pigeon thus making it less recognisable to the predator, not more so. I seem to remember hearing something similar about the white neck-ring and wing bars on the Woodpigeon being a form of nature's own camouflage in action.

BTW, please don't accuse me of introducing the topic of racing pigeons, as this is just the result of others reading more into my postings than is either written or intended. They also try to suggest that I'm not interested in wild birds - WRONG!, have a hidden agenda - WRONG! and am calling for the wholesale destruction of raptors - WRONG AGAIN! That's the problem you see - when those involved started off by making incorrect assumptions and are still continuing to do so, they lose sight of the fox and just end up chasing their own tails.

Tally ho!

what a load of old tosh, your pigeon racing is a hobby, nothing more, nothing less ... even if every poxy racer was butchered by a Peregrine, what about it ! ... No one forces you lot to race the bloody things do they!

 

[Anthony Morton]

What's this pro raptor lobby you're on about Anthony, can you tell me where it is being run and who's in charge of it. Af far as I'm aware the Schedule One Protected Raptors don't need a pro lobby, they're already covered by legislated wildlife protection laws!!

nirofo.

nirofo,

Questions, questions, questions - THREE in just the first sentence. I don't know, how do you possibly think I can answer all of the ones being thrown at me? Despite what you may think, there is only one of me you know. One poster even suggested that I was unique but I told him not to be so silly - I'm the only one, so accept no substitutes. (Thinks - better add a 'smiley' so they'll know I'm joking, otherwise....!) 3

So, to horse. I really am rather surprised that, residing in Scotland as I believe you do, you seem not to be aware that there has been a significant change to the law there regarding raptors. Some 12 months ago an amendment was passed which makes it possible for an individual to apply for a licence allowing the removal of a 'troublesome' raptor under certain specified circumstances. Therefore in Scotland at least, the water-tight legislation you are relying on has already sprung a leak, and it was nothing to do with me!

 

[Anthony Morton]

what a load of old tosh, your pigeon racing is a hobby, nothing more, nothing less ... even if every poxy racer was butchered by a Peregrine, what about it ! ... No one forces you lot to race the bloody things do they!

LB,

Thank you so very much for your carefully worded and well thought out response. And do you think it just might be possible for you to refrain from making antagonistic comments such as this, after all, they really aren't necessary in an adult world. Whatever happened to people holding different opinions I wonder?

 

[Collster]

can you source that Anthony?

reason I ask because that's not always the case in my experience, they equally take the birds which stand out the most, i.e. pigeons with more white in the plumage than average ... why are you on about racing pigeons again, the Peregrine doesn't differentiate between racers or local ferals ...

True enough LB, you have to wonder where AM gets this from. Perrys will split flocks, take trailing birds and sometimes lead birds, they do not always target lead birds. Ive seeen a few falcons taking pigeons, even seen pairs co operating together to nail a bird

 

[Jane Turner]

Valley Boy - do you see Peregrines deliberately spooking pigoen flocks, looking for a weak bird. I see them doing this frequently with Waders.

 

[London Birder]

LB,

Thank you so very much for your carefully worded and wee thought out response. And do you think it just might be possible for you to refrain from making antagonistic comments such as this, after all, they really aren't necessary in an adult world. Whatever happened to people holding different opinions I wonder?

where's the anatogonism ?

you know full well your original question was loaded.

 

[Collster]

You really must learn to stop making these unsubstantiated accusations linking each and every Peregrine Falcon death to pigeon fanciers. All it achieves is to widen the gulf between the two sides.

How many times and in how many ways must I tell you this?

You can tell me till you're blue in the face but as your words just float through my head there is little chance of me agreeing with them

 

[London Birder]

I'm tempted to suggest we just let AM get on with it, most people have tried to address his original question. The UK Peregrine population is doing fantastically despite the efforts of some. Much reason to celebrate thankfully.

 

[Jane Turner]

I always feel compelled to correct his larger "whoppers". Otherwise I agree with you LB

 

[Collster]

Jane,

Many thanks for the earlier statistical information and references. However I'm intrigued to know how you can identify any of the pigeons you've seen killed by Peregrine Falcons as stragglers - whether they are flying on their own or even in groups.

For a start, not all the racing pigeons you see passing through will be taking part in the same race, so in simple terms there is no way you would be able to tell whether the pigeon killed by a falcon was (say) a straggler in Race A, an 'average' performer in Race B, or the clear leader in race C. Bear in mind also that pigeon races are held over distances varying from 75 - 600 miles or more, which are referred to as 'sprint', 'middle distance' and 'long distance' races.

Therefore a bird apparently burning up the sky could be just an average sprinter, while what looks rather slow by comparison could be the Paula Radcliffe of the racing pigeon world. Sprint races can be won by birds achieving an average velocity of 2,000 yards per minute or more, while long distance races are frequently won at velocities of barely 1,000 yards per minute. Bear in mind that these velocities are the average distance travelled for every minute of the time it takes from the bird being released along with all the others, until it is clocked in at its home loft.

In a nutshell, it is impossible to say with any degree of certainty whatsoever which category a particular falcon victim would fall into. All we can say with certainty is that it will not be coming home, regardless of its past performances!

Have you actually seen a Peregrine attacking pigeons? Probably not as you'd have something better to write than this

 

[Anthony Morton]

where's the anatogonism ?

you know full well your original question was loaded.

Au contraire, mon ami. You and certain others have clearly made your minds up that it was, so it's no use whatsover my telling you otherwise.

However the question I borrowed from the late Chris Mead certainly became loaded as more and more here made numerous unsubstantiated assumptions, accusations and even allegations against racing pigeons and pigeon fanciers in general. Sadly the only response to something you clearly don't understand, or even want to understand, is sarcasm.

Ever heard the expressions 'Give a dog a bad name' and 'Water off a duck's back' I wonder? Still while you're having a go at me at least you're leaving someone else alone - and I am learning an awful lot!

 

[Collster]

Valley Boy - do you see Peregrines deliberately spooking pigoen flocks, looking for a weak bird. I see them doing this frequently with Waders.

Used to see it in days gone by, to be honest there is a serious lack of pigeons coming through these parts nowdays. It is common sense to anyone bar AM that weaker birds make easier targets. I know of one loft owner with Perry trouble who flys his shite birds( as he puts it) for a few hours before releasing the rest. This man breeds more RP to cover losses and it is RF having an attitude as he does that will gain the unions more friends, not the very opposite view AM adopts

 

[Anthony Morton]

Have you actually seen a Peregrine attacking pigeons? Probably not as you'd have something better to write than this

Typical, you ask me a question and then answer it yourself. That's a pity really, as you might have been quite surprised by my reply.

Ah well, must dash as I've got to see a man about a quantity of dogs!

Ciao.

 

[Anthony Morton]

I'm tempted to suggest we just let AM get on with it, most people have tried to address his original question. The UK Peregrine population is doing fantastically despite the efforts of some. Much reason to celebrate thankfully.

Agreed - so why not just say so rather than branch off into all this rhetoric about racing pigeons and pigeon fanciers?

Anyway, must dash, so TTFN.

 

[London Birder]

isn't is obvious why? to you? as a birder? no? maybe not.

keep on trucking.

 

[London Birder]

Anthony, I think it fair to say, though I don't expect you to agree, that when you asked what CM's 'concerns' were regarding the putative limit of the Peregrine population it would appear to be a loaded question, particularly given you're a PF and that individuals within your hobby (have never accused you of such lowlife tactics personally) are pushing for control measures against raptors in certain circumstances ...

 

[Jane Turner]

So a final post from me on the original subject (unless there are more wildly erroneous claims to counter).

The population of Peregrines is likely to rise.


The estimated population of 700 pairs from 1900-1939 was remarkably constant, being limited in location and density by the twin requirements for suitable breeding sites and adequate food supply in proximity to those breeding sites. There is no evidence to suggest that persecution had any effect on the number of breeding pairs until 1939 when a concerted effort by the air ministry (600 birds killed and many nests destroyed) reduced the population to under 330 pairs. It took less than 10 years for the population to return to 700 pairs, despite local persecution from eg gamekeepers.

The population was again affected by persitent use of pesticides, reaching a nadir of 68 pairs in 1962. Breeding success remained low, resulting in a much slower return to the pre-war population.

For Peregrines to increase above 700 pairs, one of two things needs to happen.

1. New nesting sites need to become available: e.g. Pylons, high rise buildings etc in areas with pre-existing populations of suitable prey species e.g. FPs

2. Increased food availability in areas with pre-existing nesting sites leading to an increase in density of breeding Peregrines: e.g. RPs in south wales valleys.

Of these I would confidently expect the former to be much the more important factor, by two or possibly three orders of magnitude.

 

[Andrew Rowlands]

Believing that dark coloured birds were less likely to be predated, one f****er kept two teams of equal numbers, one of all dark coloured pigeons and the other containing light coloured birds. However the local Peregrine Falcons took equal numbers from each team, so he concluded that in his case the colour of the prey had no bearing on predation.

Anthony, how did you/he/she know that it was the local Peregrines that were responsible for any losses during this trial?

Were there no 'muggings' by Sparrowhawks?

 

[Jane Turner]

Anthony, how did you/he/she know that it was the local Peregrines that were responsible for any losses during this trial?

Were there no 'muggings' by Sparrowhawks?

Or perhaps no birds were predated at all and both colour morphs had an identical propensity to think bugger this, I'm sitting over there with that bunch of well-fed mickeys rather than charging round all over the place.

Or perhaps the white gene is linked with improved navigation so though more were predated, a higher percentage of the reaminder returned.

Or perhaps the experiement just had too many variables.

 

[Osprey_watcher]

Au contraire, mon ami. You and certain others have clearly made your minds up that it was, so it's no use whatsover my telling you otherwise.

However the question I borrowed from the late Chris Mead certainly became loaded as more and more here made numerous unsubstantiated assumptions, accusations and even allegations against r***ng pigeons and pigeon f****ers in general. Sadly the only response to something you clearly don't understand, or even want to understand, is sarcasm.

Ever heard the expressions 'Give a dog a bad name' and 'Water off a duck's back' I wonder? Still while you're having a go at me at least you're leaving someone else alone - and I am learning an awful lot!

Don't believe you!!!
And if you take offence, good.
Out of interest I've had a look through some of the threads you've started.
Everyone one I looked at started with a question and a point of view from you that was certain to anger a lot of people on here.
IMHO you do it deliberately to wind people up. Nothing wrong with that, it's our fault for falling for it.
p.s. Are you really so lonely you have to resort to this just so people will talk to you?
8-P