Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[AndyS]

Now isn't that strange, the last time I checked the pigeons in Trafalgar Square there wasn't even one with a ring on its leg to identify it as a racer - and I know exactly what I'm looking for.

...


"Bandits in the sun, Ginger - make Angels One-Five. Tally-ho! Out."

Oooh.. sounds like the last time you checked there was during the Battle of Britain.... :eek!:

 

[nirofo]

Presumably if every feral pigeon (and racer) disappeared there'd still be an ample supply of woodpigeons. My local peregrines never eat anything else...

Forgive me if it's been mentioned already

I doubt that!

nirofo.

 

[Jane Turner]

There was a rash of "wasted racers" here over the weekend - at least 15. A couple got run over, a cat got one and as yet I've not seen a Peregrine take one.

Mind you the air is full of anting gulls!

 

[nirofo]

Yet that is exactly the impression being given to the casual observer by the implications contained in far too many postings. Even you have been selective by only quoting part of my posting, the full version of which reads;

I can accept that pigeon fanciers may belong on the list, along with egg collectors, shooting interests etc., but I flatly refuse to accept that they are single-handedly responsible for the death of every raptor, or the failure of their nests.

Surely there can be no doubts as to its meaning, can there? As to blaming only pigeon fanciers, please read what follows.



It's taken me a while, but I have checked through all the posts on this thread and noted 25 separate occasions where pigeon fanciers alone are being blamed specifically for the deaths of Peregrine Falcons. This number does not include several instances where other groups or interests are also blamed in addition to pigeon fanciers. Yet as has also been said on more than one occasion by more than one poster, there is not a shred of evidence to support these claims.

That's not to say that raptor persecution isn't happening because it clearly is, or that pigeon fanciers are necessarily innocent, but it is NOT sufficient to constantly point the finger in their direction without any tangible evidence or proof whatsoever. This fact has also been mentioned by other members. I have kept a list of the 25 postings I am specifically referring to and it is glaringly obvious that the lion's share are the responsibility of just one member, who is also one of your compatriots and seems to be carrying out a personal vendetta against all pigeon fanciers.

In my opinion this is a clear case of mud-slinging in the hope that at least some will stick. And how long will it take before the usual protagonists feel compelled to dip their oar in yet again?

It would take nothing but an absolute total numpty to even consider that PF's were totally and solely responsible for the persecution of Peregrines throughout the UK. I've followed this thread from the beginning and I can't remember seeing a post which stated this as fact, in fact there are many posts which point the finger at all the main Raptor persecutors which includes not isolates PF's as being just one group of criminals among many others! As it has been said many times before, without concrete evidence it is almost impossible to obtain a conviction for Wildlife Crime, that doesn't mean to say that it never happens or that PF's would never stoop to such low life a thing.

Admitted some on this thread are anti PF's where there is a problem with them persecuting Raptors, I include myself in this category. For the PF's who have no bad intentions towards the Raptors, then I am quite happy for them to continue their pastime whenever it suits them.

nirofo.

 

[London Birder]

my feelings exactly.

 

[Jane Turner]

I have tried to explain that, together with urban-dwelling feral pigeons, they are NOT an inexhaustable food source and, just like the Passenger Pigeon, when they are gone that's it.

Earth to Anthony - predator prey relationships reminder!

Also I can't find an answer to my question about p****** f****** in China, Chile, Russia, Mexico etc, then again i glazed over a few pages back.

 

[London Birder]

don't hold yer breath Jane ...

 

[Collster]

Admitted some on this thread are anti PF's where there is a problem with them persecuting Raptors, I include myself in this category. For the PF's who have no bad intentions towards the Raptors, then I am quite happy for them to continue their pastime whenever it suits them.

nirofo.

Thats it in a nutshell, those fanciers who just take the losses through whatever cause on the chin are to be applauded. They are enjoying their hobby and letting nature take its course. The other small percentage that either participate or encourage others to carry out attacks on a schedule1 or other birds just to protect their interests are the ones who need to be removed from the equation. You should enter any hobby with a full understanding of the pros and cons, in PF this means there is a high risk that you may lose birds.Just remember not every lost bird is taken by Perrys

 

[London Birder]

and maybe remind your cohorts (those who think raptors need controlling, if indeed you know any) that it's merely a hobby

 

[Anthony Morton]

look closer next time ... my last count there was of c1,200 of which 6 were wearing colured rings (current population numbers up to 200-ish), I was looking for the ringed birds specifically ... in 63 hours of eyrie watching in '05 saw one racer taken in to young, many ferals.

And what, may I ask, do you deduce from the fact that on the day you counted them 0.5% of the Trafalgar Square pigeons carried some form of marker rings? Were they all English birds, or did any come from Wales, Scotland, Ireland, or even further afield, say Holland, Belgium or France? Maybe you don't know, after all why should you when to you a pigeon is a pigeon is a pigeon!

As I've already said, the day I counted them there were none. Therefore based on our respective counts it is possible to say that the number of ringed racing pigeons resident in Trafalgar Square can range from between 0 up to and including a maximum of 6.

edit: above should read 68 hours, not 63 ... speaking of shreds of evidence, where's the evidence for the statement that up to 10 pigeons are required for an eyrie per day (a statement made by your fellow PF's), where?

Just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it's impossible for someone else to have seen 10 pigeons brought to one eyrie in one day. In this instance, the figure was quoted by Dr Andrew Dixon who has extensively studied the predation of Racing Pigeons by Peregrine Falcons, particularly in South Wales. I'm sure the ever-present 'valley boy' will have heard of him and may even know him and have helped him in his work. Therefore, the '10 per day' figure was NOT simply plucked out of the air by pigeon fanciers as you seem to imply, but rather arrived at by an acknowledged expert on Peregrine Falcons.

(Reference for any Doubting Thomas's - http://www.rpra.org/raptors.html paragraph headed 'Delaying the start of the old bird racing season.'

In future, LB, PLEASE try to do a bit of your own leg-work!

 

[Jos Stratford]

Selective answering again Anthony - since you made an allegation against one of our members, the rest of us are still waiting for an answer. You can refresh your mind to the question if need be - post 407

 

[Jane Turner]

Selective answering again Anthony - since you made an allegation against one of our members, the rest of us are still waiting for an answer. You can refresh your mind to the question if need be - post 407

I have noticed that if Mr Morton doesn't like the answer, he pretends he hasn't seen the question.

 

[London Birder]

what I deduce Anthony is that many racers/homers simply go AWOL without receiving the attention of raptors regardless of the country of origin ... however you are correct when you say that to me a pigeon is just a pigeon, I imagine your average Peregrine see's them that way also when it requires a meal.

10 pigeons on one day to an eyrie!

WTF! I don't care who the so-called expert is, he's talking out of his rear end ... if in fact that is what he has actually stated of course?

The late Mr.Ratcliffe would be cracking up over that one.

oh, and I always do my own 'leg-work' as you so quaintly put it, and to imply otherwise is both disingenuous and snide ... how many hours have you watched and documented eyries for Anthony?

once again Anthony, this is all about racers/homers ain't it, naff all to do with the feral population as a whole but everything to do with protecting your hobby ... take up kite flying my friend, I suspect you'd be good at it.

 

[Jos Stratford]

And, a little free offer on the RPRA website ...just in case anyone is in any doubt as to:
a. the warped mentality of the folks there
b. their lack of understanding of even basic ecology
c. their views towards raptors

 

[Anthony Morton]

Presumably if every feral pigeon (and racer) disappeared there'd still be an ample supply of woodpigeons. My local peregrines never eat anything else...

Forgive me if it's been mentioned already

Thankyou, 'pianoman', that's exactly the question I'm looking for an answer to. When and if the population of feral and racing pigeons becomes exhausted, what would happen then? given that Peregrine Falcon numbers are increasing?

If, as seems to be the case in your part of the world, the Peregrine Falcons simply switched to Woodpigeons as their main prey species, how long would they last before they also became exhausted? And in turn, which other species would be subjected to, and affected by, higher predation levels?

I'm not talking about this year or next year, but 5, 10 or even 50 years from now.

 

[James Lowther]

Anthony,
it really is very simple

predation by peregrine falcons will not "exhaust" the population of a single prey species

it's basic ecology

there you go

you don't need to bring this subject up ever again now do you?

 

[London Birder]

yes he does, it's what he bases his whole flawed argument upon

 

[London Birder]

Thankyou, 'pianoman', that's exactly the question I'm looking for an answer to. /QUOTE]



thought the question you were seeking an answer to was the one posed by CM.

A question which has been answered by those who've chosen to, to the best of their ability.

Is that it?

 

[Anthony Morton]

I still don't believe anyone here has ever suggested that they are responsible for every raptor death or every nesting failure, Anthony.

Alright then, to put an end to this nit-picking, would you (and presumably several others) be happier if instead of writing in general terms I amended the statement you seem to be having so much trouble with to read:-

"... but I flatly refuse to accept that they are single-handedly responsible for the death of every raptor, or the failure of their nest IN THE SOUTH WALES VALLEYS."

Just remember that you have forced me to be that specific, rather than allowing the matter to be discussed in more general terms without pointing a finger at any one group or individual.

Could you give a reference, or are you just trying to put words into mouths again?Who is this casual observer exactly, Anthony?

Now that we are being area specific, how many references would you like? As for the casual observer, this could be anyone from around the world visiting this forum - including pigeon fanciers of course. It could also be Mrs Morton who occasionally has a browse here but certainly does not have any strongly held beliefs about any species of bird.

So you can't or won't give references? If so, why don't you just say so (it'll save the rest of us reading your waffle)?

Perhaps this is yet another case whereby you deliberately take highly localised issues and try to spin them to a nationwide perspective?

Naturally you are entitled to your opinion regarding my comments, just as I am mine. If you don't like what I'm saying, then why not exercise your right to press the 'ignore' button. What I write is MY opinion on matters. If I quote from another source I try to give references.

Before you do, however, South Wales has (had?) one of, if not the, highest population densities of Peregrine Falcons in the UK, so what makes you think that something (anything) which affects that population at the localised level could not eventually affect them on a national basis? Better still, can you guarantee that it won't?

 

[Anthony Morton]

Selective answering again Anthony - since you made an allegation against one of our members, the rest of us are still waiting for an answer. You can refresh your mind to the question if need be - post 407

See post #439, although I still don't suppose you'll be satisfied.