Uk400club 'list Of Lists' Etc Etc (1 Viewer)

[Sancho]

A question for the Mods. Is there any reason why members are not required to give their name?

Just a thought

I don't want to use my real name because I'm a teacher and I don't want my charges following me around on t'internet. You could be pretty sure that if they found me here, they'd join for a bit of sport. Same reason my land-line phone number is ex-directory. I'd imagine there are a lot of BF members who have similar concerns.

 

[chris23565]

Colin

Seen anything of Paul (Marc Bolan) lately? If I am lucky, I see him just once a year - at the Birdfair. Talking about sharing some great times together - never forget when I was arrested in Notts with Paul in the back seat........and that mysterious back window of mine being completely smashed in the dead of night. Memories eh. Did we fight like cat and dog back then - I remember only a few minor skirmishes in the White Hart and George - and that generally with a few cantankerous local lads. It was only really the Isles of Scilly where the big flare-ups took place......

I seem to remember in the 80's a footy match or two between the birders and islanders, think it was to try and calm things down between birders and islanders as things got a bit heated at times, took place on the Garrison (I think), maybe you two opposing halves in this debate should get together and do the same thing!

 

[bernie b]

Colin

I was asked only this week by a young up-and-coming film-maker that I was helping out why I hadn't written my life story detailing the history of twitching from the perspective of someone who has lived it all. I know Mark Cocker wrote something along those lines a few years back but I wonder if there would be much mileage in it - and worse still think of the reaction on here to it, if I published a 'warts-and-all' chronology of events since the early/mid 70's. Could it be a best-seller one wonders........

I presume it would begin,Once upon a time

 

[rollingthunder]

I remember the football 'matches' i also remember all the birders running off in shorts, trainers etc when something had been found nearby with the opposing islanders just standing there watching them run off in various directions to pick up bins and scopes.........happy day!

Laurie -

 

[Jane Turner]

Bah, beat me to it. I seem to remember you fighting a lone battle towards the end on that one Jane.

How about Monday Brown Flycatcher at Buckton last year & post 8pm Royal Tern in Llandudno a few years back.

Has [first] Saturday Rainham Slaty-Backed Gull been taken yet ?

Alan Coleman

Its (ChinaTown) already on my list as not EOW.... but of course you and Frenchy can have it. I'll give you the others, but feel the need to point out that the other ALan has scored SBG way more comprehensively than you. Not just records on a date - the whole record publicly doubted

 

[Jane Turner]

Is there a lawyer in the house ?

What is a 'Clause 10 petition' ?

Kind regards

Johnny Allan

If you google it as a phrase (my standard way of getting answers to questions I don't know), you get 4 hits, this thread being rather prominent.

 

[Johnny Allan]

If you google it as a phrase (my standard way of getting answers to questions I don't know), you get 4 hits, this thread being rather prominent.

Thanks Jane, I also like to try Wikipedia as well. Still none the wiser. Have I missed something ?

Reading some of the last few posts, one can see how Lee appears to be an affable chap at times and, indeed, I know he can be. Whilst in this jovial mood, I'm hoping he'll accept my polite, and undoubtedly reasonable request without further ado.

Oh well, back to real birding

Kind regards

Johnny Allan

 

[MSA]

I wouldn't worry about clause 10 petitions or much else on the legal front, as so much of it is clearly hogwash it's hard to know where to start, so I won't
Suffice to say that any legal action would be taken by the Commission, not by individuals (unless they wanted to pursue a private case for damages, which would be best left until after any criminal prosecution in any case); I also understand that there is no such thing as an exemption certificate, as the whole system is self-certifying (it's like asking the Council for an exemption certificate from parking tickets on the basis that you never park on double yellow lines).

 

[upstarts1979]

I remember the football 'matches' i also remember all the birders running off in shorts, trainers etc when something had been found nearby with the opposing islanders just standing there watching them run off in various directions to pick up bins and scopes.........happy day!

Laurie -

But do you remember the 'battle' of the quayside on the Friday night (my football hooligan training helped me that night), we won that one8-P

 

[Paul Chapman]

Alan/Jane

"How about ... post 8pm Royal Tern in Llandudno a few years back.

Alan Coleman"

"I'll give you the others" (Jane Turner)

I would be delighted to know why you feel in a position to cast doubt on my Royal Tern sighting. Were you present in the group by the pier at the relevant time? Have I got a reputation for having a list containing dodgy or unconfirmed sightings or a lack of honesty and integrity? Perhaps you can elaborate. If you have no sound basis for your comments, perhaps you can reflect on them and your behaviour in placing the relevant posts.

My reputation is important to me professionally and personally. I refer you to my original message in which I set out the standards by which I behave and I expect others to do so together with a comment on the sighting:-

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1511666#post1511666

My position in respect of that sighting remains unaltered.

There was an earlier reference in this thread suggesting that it is outrageous for someone to say if you call me a liar without a sound basis for it, then I will sue you. The public attitude towards compensation culture and unmeritorious legal actions has actually been created by a series of media myths. Reference to official statistics on legal actions will illustrate this. It is one of those odd things that people generally believe the media despite the fact that when it reports stories of which an individual has an intimate knowledge, those stories are variously littered with factual inaccuracies (eg the reporting of the White-throated Robin in Hartlepool.)

To take action for a civil wrong is the right of every individual. (Also currently, if a case has merit, you will find a solicitor to fund it so you would not need to sell your house to pursue it as earlier suggested in this thread. This will not be the case if the funding elements of The Legal Aid and Sentincing Bill become law but that is the real world and actually important rather than this nonsense.)

This is not a threat so please do not misinterpret it. But even before the reference to the Royal Tern sighting, I felt that it would be important for me to explain this. It is actually very important for people to be able to sue. It is the risk of civil actions being brought that maintains certain levels of behaviour - civil law is effectively policed in this way and in most of our day to day lives we are dependent on civil law as much as criminal law. Feel free to google Glanville Williams and the Purpose of Torts. He is broadly right in that regard. Of course, if you have a sound basis to call someone a liar, then you can do so. If you do not, perhaps you ought to reflect that you would not like to be called a liar in the same circumstances. (By the way, I currently know nothing about the Data Protection Act - it is not my area.)

So there you have it. In a thread which in part was started because of Lee's tendency to cast doubt on an individual's probity with no sound basis, ironically, I am the victim of exactly the same crime by two people that I do not know and when I am unaware of any basis for their views. The irony of that is marked. It also leaves me drawing conclusions on the character of the individuals that have chosen to do that and frankly even after sleeping on Alan's comments overnight it leaves me very angry.

Of course, if anyone wants to tell me that they saw the same bird as me and why it was not the Royal Tern please contact me as I would be genuinely interested to know why I had made a mistake. I know why I consider it to have been and quite simply it is clear that this is a forum on which I do not feel inclined to ellaborate.

All the best

Paul Chapman

 

[Jane Turner]

Paul - you'll not find any suggestion that I've said anyone has or hasn't seen Royal tern, anywhere either verbally or in writing. All I was agreeing with is that Alan was now quite clearly on record as dissing it. If you took it any other way, I'm sorry to have given you the wrong impression.

However thanks for making my point so beautifully clearly.... its a behaviour that I think is out of order... Alan (Lewis whatever the number is) is one of the few people who manages, despite bluntness, to do it quite sensitively. He is also upfront, giving tangible reasons rather hiding behind a smoke screen of inference and covert correspondence.

I should add... for the full ironic effect to be in place - I should have said that I'd heard.. or someone had emailed me to say that someone else had dissed your record and added it to my closely guarded skeptics list..published it without their consent and when the person who I'd claimed had dissed it had come forth and said... oh now I didn't, rather than apologising and removing it said, well I have emails that show x is to blame.


Are you still with me - I know its getting to be rather complex

 

[lewis20126]

I would be delighted to know why you feel in a position to cast doubt on my Royal Tern sighting.

Paul,

Different Alan but I'll throw in my 2p worth!

Whilst you may have seen a Royal Tern at Llanndundo at 8pm, at least some of the evidence put into the public domain by others who were present at the time suggest that the bird seen by them was at some distance and that at least some failed to see the bill colour. I know for example that Steve Webb was at the pier and does not count the 8pm Royal Tern but perhaps he saw a different bird or observed insufficient details for him to record it as such.

If you saw a Royal Tern that day, I would advise you tick it! I know I would. Unfortunately I was by the swimming pool seeing nothing along with 200 others.

Cheers, alan

 

[upstarts1979]

Alan/Jane

"How about ... post 8pm Royal Tern in Llandudno a few years back.

Alan Coleman"

"I'll give you the others" (Jane Turner)

I would be delighted to know why you feel in a position to cast doubt on my Royal Tern sighting. Were you present in the group by the pier at the relevant time? Have I got a reputation for having a list containing dodgy or unconfirmed sightings or a lack of honesty and integrity? Perhaps you can elaborate. If you have no sound basis for your comments, perhaps you can reflect on them and your behaviour in placing the relevant posts.

My reputation is important to me professionally and personally. I refer you to my original message in which I set out the standards by which I behave and I expect others to do so together with a comment on the sighting:-

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1511666#post1511666

My position in respect of that sighting remains unaltered.

There was an earlier reference in this thread suggesting that it is outrageous for someone to say if you call me a liar without a sound basis for it, then I will sue you. The public attitude towards compensation culture and unmeritorious legal actions has actually been created by a series of media myths. Reference to official statistics on legal actions will illustrate this. It is one of those odd things that people generally believe the media despite the fact that when it reports stories of which an individual has an intimate knowledge, those stories are variously littered with factual inaccuracies (eg the reporting of the White-throated Robin in Hartlepool.)

To take action for a civil wrong is the right of every individual. (Also currently, if a case has merit, you will find a solicitor to fund it so you would not need to sell your house to pursue it as earlier suggested in this thread. This will not be the case if the funding elements of The Legal Aid and Sentincing Bill become law but that is the real world and actually important rather than this nonsense.)

This is not a threat so please do not misinterpret it. But even before the reference to the Royal Tern sighting, I felt that it would be important for me to explain this. It is actually very important for people to be able to sue. It is the risk of civil actions being brought that maintains certain levels of behaviour - civil law is effectively policed in this way and in most of our day to day lives we are dependent on civil law as much as criminal law. Feel free to google Glanville Williams and the Purpose of Torts. He is broadly right in that regard. Of course, if you have a sound basis to call someone a liar, then you can do so. If you do not, perhaps you ought to reflect that you would not like to be called a liar in the same circumstances. (By the way, I currently know nothing about the Data Protection Act - it is not my area.)

So there you have it. In a thread which in part was started because of Lee's tendency to cast doubt on an individual's probity with no sound basis, ironically, I am the victim of exactly the same crime by two people that I do not know and when I am unaware of any basis for their views. The irony of that is marked. It also leaves me drawing conclusions on the character of the individuals that have chosen to do that and frankly even after sleeping on Alan's comments overnight it leaves me very angry.

Of course, if anyone wants to tell me that they saw the same bird as me and why it was not the Royal Tern please contact me as I would be genuinely interested to know why I had made a mistake. I know why I consider it to have been and quite simply it is clear that this is a forum on which I do not feel inclined to ellaborate.

All the best

Paul Chapman

Paul very interesting stuff....BUT, If you called me a paedophile in the public domain I would sue you( or maybe knock you out). If you told me I had not seen the Royal Tern and I had, so what 8-P, > Where some people differ, is in their level of Sensitiveness, there are times in life when you have to broaden your shoulders and fight your corner. If you saw a bird and are 100% sure you did, then let any amount of ridicule fly over your head. If there is an element of doubt then be honest with yourself and don't claim it. However if the ridicule becomes a 'bullying' issue, then only 2 courses of action remain: the legal/law route or the other one :'D. I think you know what I mean :smoke:

John Belsey

 

[Lee Evans]

MSA

If you know more about this than the Commission themselves, are you saying that I don't have a case to answer for. Since 2007, self-certification is in place and on the 24 page document that you have to fill in, on Page 7 I tick ''PERSONAL INFORMATION HELD IN CONNECTION WITH A HOBBY''. I have asked Paul about this and spent a day with lawyers yesterday, but nobody seems to know the answers as they have never received complaints such as this before. They received an initial complaint dated 27.06.11 from somebody purporting to be Johnny Allan, with his home address and a signature - I have a copy of it here on my desk - and it is a request for removal from a fictitious UK400 Club list total. They referred to this as ''Raising of a Section 10'' which I know nothing whatsoever about. I explained to them that I intended to do nothing about the requests as I did not feel that I had anything other than a name of an individual and a figure against it. I did agree to mark the offending totals with an asterisk making it clear that the total included here was estimated to my best belief and that by any name being included here certainly did not represent any individual connection or support for the organisation. I also welcomed individuals to notify of any incorrect totals.

As you seem rather knowledgeable in the Act, perhaps you could offer some advice

 

[Paul Chapman]

Jane - noted and thank you.

Alan - "Whilst you may have seen a Royal Tern at Llanndundo at 8pm, at least some of the evidence put into the public domain by others who were present at the time suggest that the bird seen by them was at some distance and that at least some failed to see the bill colour. I know for example that Steve Webb was at the pier and does not count the 8pm Royal Tern but perhaps he saw a different bird or observed insufficient details for him to record it as such."

I presume that your evidence in the public domain is the fact that Steve does not count it. That is entirely a matter for Steve and I entirely respect his decision.

Steve was in his car at the time the bird was picked up. (As you will recall the parking spaces were on the opposite side of the road.) Only Steve will know what he saw and whether he got sufficient detail to be sure but whatever he saw it was after me as I had seen the bird through a scope, then given that up for a friend to allow him to try and get on it and was looking for the bird through Steve's scope (cheekily I'll admit) before Steve reacted. Of course, I immediately released Steve's scope for him but I cannot say what he saw as a result. It would have been of a more distant bird going away around the corner.

John - I am in a profession that means I need to guard my reputation so certain options are simply unavailable. It also means that I probably need to be more sensitive than robust on occasions. A personal shame. (The memory of the buzz of an old-fashioned Boxing Day derby away from home is difficult to replicate even though I was a callow youth. Going away to the San Siro is fun though.)

That's a long enough tea break - back to work.

All the best

Paul Chapman

 

[Steve Webb]

MSA

If you know more about this than the Commission themselves, are you saying that I don't have a case to answer for. Since 2007, self-certification is in place and on the 24 page document that you have to fill in, on Page 7 I tick ''PERSONAL INFORMATION HELD IN CONNECTION WITH A HOBBY''. I have asked Paul about this and spent a day with lawyers yesterday, but nobody seems to know the answers as they have never received complaints such as this before. They received an initial complaint dated 27.06.11 from somebody purporting to be Johnny Allan, with his home address and a signature - I have a copy of it here on my desk - and it is a request for removal from a fictitious UK400 Club list total. They referred to this as ''Raising of a Section 10'' which I know nothing whatsoever about. I explained to them that I intended to do nothing about the requests as I did not feel that I had anything other than a name of an individual and a figure against it. I did agree to mark the offending totals with an asterisk making it clear that the total included here was estimated to my best belief and that by any name being included here certainly did not represent any individual connection or support for the organisation. I also welcomed individuals to notify of any incorrect totals.

As you seem rather knowledgeable in the Act, perhaps you could offer some advice

Lee,

I had a long conversion with ICO earlier this week. I went over many of the points covered in the attachment which was sent to you in July 2002. From this conversion I would say that this attachment is still valid.

Today I have sent to you a complaint about processing my personal information. It requests that you remove all information on me from your from your files, database and your business UK400 money making website. I am aware that others are also sending in complaints to you.

When you receive my letter you will have 21 days to reply to me telling me what action you are going to take regarding my personal information.

I estimate that around 50 birders have requested that you take them off the rankings list including some from your own UK400 email group. Please comply to these requests.

Thank You
Steve

 

[MSA]

MSA

If you know more about this than the Commission themselves, are you saying that I don't have a case to answer for. Since 2007, self-certification is in place and on the 24 page document that you have to fill in, on Page 7 I tick ''PERSONAL INFORMATION HELD IN CONNECTION WITH A HOBBY''. I have asked Paul about this and spent a day with lawyers yesterday, but nobody seems to know the answers as they have never received complaints such as this before. They received an initial complaint dated 27.06.11 from somebody purporting to be Johnny Allan, with his home address and a signature - I have a copy of it here on my desk - and it is a request for removal from a fictitious UK400 Club list total. They referred to this as ''Raising of a Section 10'' which I know nothing whatsoever about. I explained to them that I intended to do nothing about the requests as I did not feel that I had anything other than a name of an individual and a figure against it. I did agree to mark the offending totals with an asterisk making it clear that the total included here was estimated to my best belief and that by any name being included here certainly did not represent any individual connection or support for the organisation. I also welcomed individuals to notify of any incorrect totals.

As you seem rather knowledgeable in the Act, perhaps you could offer some advice

Lee, just to clarify, before I offer any advice (which I'm more than happy to do), please could you confirm that although you believe you are exempt, you have chosen to register voluntarily. I ask this because if you are exempt you don't actually need to complete or submit any forms under the current legislation, you just have to satisfy yourself that this is indeed the case, and be able to justify this decision to the Commission should any nonsense like the above thread occurs.

(I receive a single sheet renewal each year, just to confirm no changes, and all applications I've assisted with have been online, but I'm surprised they stretch to 24 pages in the printed version - is there a form reference on the front sheet, so I can check what you've been asked to fill in?).

 

[MSA]

Ah! Just seen Steve Webb's post which slipped i when I was typing. I think you've received an enquiry form following a complaint, so the ICO can check how you see the situation before deciding upon a course of action. Not a lot I can say or do if it's reached this stage; my personal view is that deletion of the "offending" data will satisfy them, but if the UK400 club charges for membership and you haven't registered, you will almost certainly have to rectify this. The earlier complaint in Steve's letter could be problematic though. I truly hope this is sorted by compliance, not penalties.

 

[Lee Evans]

Mark

This is exactly what I was trying to say to you before. The Commission is already involved with this and have already stipulated that I wll be heavily fined and shut down if I cannot satisfy the courts - hence why my comments on the matter. There is every chance that I will lose the case and I shall have to declare bankruptcy as I do not have the means to pay the fines of up to 50 cases, as Steve Webb has intimated. I have asked Paul Chapman in his capacity as a lawyer to look into it for me, as he is a birder and maybe understand the law from this point of view.

 

[Jane Turner]

Wouldn't deleting a few lines in a spreadsheet be an easier option? The words spite, your, nose, off, cutting to your (not necessarily in that order) come to mind