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Vietnam March 2019 (1 Viewer)

While the issues around certain countries and the exposure to trapping is one reason for not sharing GPS locations, the point about guiding is more that we had employed a local guide who took us to locations that he has developed where our chances of seeing target birds were significantly improved.

That is his livelihood.

If we share the GPS locations freely then we are risking his livelihood, moreover we increase the probability that if locals can't see the value in protecting the habitats and developing ecotourism then the habitats continue to be eroded. They are barely clinging on in places as it is.

Fully endorse Pash leaving GPS refs off the report.
 
I get it that guides make a livelihood from the info they share with clients, and clients spreading info could potentially erode the guide's unique selling point.
I also fully get it when GPS is not shared because of the risk of trapping, hunting, ... especially in a country like Viet Nam.

However, I just don't understand the reasoning:
" I have not included GPS locations as I believe only those birding independently should share such information. "

It seems from this sentence, it's OK (and the word 'should' even implicates some kind of obligation) for independent birders to post detailed info, while guided birders have a good excuse not to share info. I don't agree because of the following reasons:

1. the report refers to helpful independent reports. So the author benefits from the exact info he feels he shouldn't share. This feels like he's ok by taking info, not by giving. You pay for a guide, but you get free info from independent birders... Shouldn't you pay them for their reports (a rethoric question)?

2. Many places on the birding circuit where staked out by independent birders, universities, expeditions, early explorers, and ofcourse also local guides or professional international birding guides. Commercial birding benefits and profits from people freely sharing info (think about recent sightings on ebird, guides using bird sounds from XC, not allowed actually, but that's another discussion). This should ofcourse not be a competition who shares the most: as a matter of fact, sharing info works (best) in both ways (e.g. many guides put all their sightings on ebird, if you want to talk about guides who are not afraid of sharing and losing their livelihood!). And while there is no obligation at all to share info, it is always appreciated.

3. Ignoring the issue of trapping / hunting / vulnerable species, a big problem in e.g. Viet Nam, Indonesia,... (a reason I also suppress certain sightings in my reports), the sharing of detailed information is almost never the deciding factor between opting for a guided tour or an independent tour. People chose for guided tours for various reasons, but the lack of more specific gen about where to find certain target birds is no factor for 99% of birders (factors are comfort, lack of time / interest preparing the trip in terms of logistics and birds, safety, having someone who speaks the language and understands the culture,...). The only outcome is that independent birders, who you relied upon in your pre-trip preparation, will be a bit more frustrated and lose more time in those areas where information is scarce / not updated...The same way as you could state that guides' unique selling points erodes if you share info, independent info will erode if people stop contributing and sharing.

If there are no places like e.g. cloudbirders, xeno-canto, ebird, observation, inaturalist, birdforum, and especially if there are no people feeding info to those sites because they feel entitled not to share info (for various reasons, some very valid, others debatable)... there is simply no independent (international) birding community.
 
While the issues around certain countries and the exposure to trapping is one reason for not sharing GPS locations, the point about guiding is more that we had employed a local guide who took us to locations that he has developed where our chances of seeing target birds were significantly improved.

That is his livelihood.

If we share the GPS locations freely then we are risking his livelihood, moreover we increase the probability that if locals can't see the value in protecting the habitats and developing ecotourism then the habitats continue to be eroded. They are barely clinging on in places as it is.

Fully endorse Pash leaving GPS refs off the report.

I don't really agree here, there are people who will never take a guide and those who always will so I don't think his livelihood would be impacted to any great degree, if at all.

There are also people who will always share info and those who won't.
 
I would side with Pash. I took Peter Waander's 9 grasswren tour a few years ago, not because I couldn't drive around the outback or find the same hotels, but because I KNEW I would not find a number of those birds. I wouldn't think of disclosing those GPS locations. And I find the words "feel entitled not to share" regrettable when someone has put in a lot of effort to write a very good trip report. (And Temmie, yours are superb.)
Bob
 
Hi Bob (and Paul),

I hope I am not misunderstood (English is not my first language):
I applaud every effort to write a report; at the same time, nobody is obliged to write one and everybody is free to put in there whatever they deem necessary and for whatever purpose / motivation.

If you didn't write a report, I had nothing to comment in this thread :)

I just think the specific reasoning behind not putting GPS in the report is worth some discussion, not to convince someone to do as I would like, but to give another point of view on the subject. Writing a report can be hard work and there are always parts of the report that can be a bit more sensitive / harder to get to the point / debatable whether to include or not... think about rating a guide (when he didn't do his job very well / commenting on birds you didn't see while you don't know if you lack experience or you were unlucky / include or not include specific site info that can be sensitive)...

I like discussions about birding, traveling, reports,... and my previous reaction could be either some food for thought, something you don't agree with or something you choose to ignore / forget. So please don't take this too personal.
 
While the issues around certain countries and the exposure to trapping is one reason for not sharing GPS locations, the point about guiding is more that we had employed a local guide who took us to locations that he has developed where our chances of seeing target birds were significantly improved.

That is his livelihood.

If we share the GPS locations freely then we are risking his livelihood, moreover we increase the probability that if locals can't see the value in protecting the habitats and developing ecotourism then the habitats continue to be eroded. They are barely clinging on in places as it is.

Fully endorse Pash leaving GPS refs off the report.

I have to ask, did you enquire about the coordinates and make a note of them, if so, why?

It's one thing if a guide has requested that you don't give out any site details but to take it upon yourself could be seen as being a bit aloof? Unless a site is sensitive to disturbance or a guide has specifically requested that I withold site details, I'm always happy to reciprocate, having on most occasions, built my trip on the advice and experience of others.

I do know that if you go to Scandinavia where you'll pay a lot of money to be taken to Owl nests, you are not allowed to carry any gadgets that would allow you to record the GPS data.

On your point regarding the perceived value of eco tourism among locals, With so few individuals benefiting from such a lucrative, niche market, I've seen it cause real envy and bad feeling in some communities, from those who don't make any money from it. A guide will be well paid for his services but how much of that will 'trickle' down throughout the geater community? With a very few individuals making a pretty good living, I think it's difficult in most places, to make a valid argument for the value of eco tourism to a community in general.
 
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While the issues around certain countries and the exposure to trapping is one reason for not sharing GPS locations, the point about guiding is more that we had employed a local guide who took us to locations that he has developed where our chances of seeing target birds were significantly improved.

That is his livelihood.

If we share the GPS locations freely then we are risking his livelihood, moreover we increase the probability that if locals can't see the value in protecting the habitats and developing ecotourism then the habitats continue to be eroded. They are barely clinging on in places as it is.

Fully endorse Pash leaving GPS refs off the report.

I support this. Good sense.

Steve
 
While the issues around certain countries and the exposure to trapping is one reason for not sharing GPS locations, the point about guiding is more that we had employed a local guide who took us to locations that he has developed where our chances of seeing target birds were significantly improved.

How has he 'developed' sites?
 
I support this. Good sense.

Steve

As in Thailand at KNC (Gurney's Pitta) where the well known guide suffered numerous threats to his life for trying to stop villagers from hacking down the forest for farm land so he could continue to charge foreingners a lot of money, the prosperity of the odd guide here and there is unlikely to hold things up for very long, if at all, sadly.

Small packets of land are not suitable models for the long term benefit of communities and in such places, guides guard their sites jealously, nothing is shared. Cooperatives are the only way to promote the benefits of eco tourism whereby a percentage of a guides fee, goes in to a pot for his / her village projects but that model is best suited to larger parks where there is more than one guide operating.
 
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I think it's a case-by-case basis. I was told by a guide in Indonesia that bird-trappers check ebird, and I think it's somewhat irresponsible to publish GPS locations for certain species (such as laughingthrushes) in some countries (Vietnam being one), regardless of whether you are taken to a site by a guide. I think the best option may be for the author to invite birders to request precise locations.

I think there are circumstances where a particular guide has invested a lot of time finding sites for difficult species (e.g. owl nests in Finland), and has a moral right to expect these to be kept confidential. Reading the OP's trip report, it seemed to be a fairly standard tour and I'm not sure this applies here, but I could be wrong.

I'm also dubious about the benefits to conservation from hiring local guides. There are some obvious examples (Zeth in the Arfaks springs to mind), but my experience is generally that local guides are powerless to do anything to stop trapping / habitat loss.
 
Nice report, good to hear you had a great trip!

As for the sharing of GPS data on locations, I agree that it is not correct to share detailed info on locations only found with the help of a guide (unless the guide agrees to sharing). In my view, independant birders are free to share or not info on locations they found themselves. However, as independant birders usually use trip reports of others, of course fairness implies to some extent that they also should share information to others.

Now a few comments to what has been discussed regarding the concerns of conservation and wellfare of birds, this is a more tricky issue.

Next to habitat desctruction, bird trapping is an increasing problem in Vietnam, especially as rarities such as the endemic Laughingthrushes are increasingly targeted. All info such as location data in trip reports, ebird or xeno canto (where both location data and the songs can be of use for trappers) are sensitive data and should only be shared with great care.

However, the activites of local guides and their clients are at least as big a problem, as their hides and feeding stations, tape playing and visible acitivites of photographer and birding groups draw much attention of locals, including trappers, to interesting places. Mealworm feeding makes Laughingthrushes and Pittas quite tame and they become easy targets for trappers. As I heard, quite a few reliable sites (e.g. for Chestnut-eared L. or Organge-breasted L.) have been lost in recent years due to this problem.

So I think in the current situation, using guides with hides and feeding stations is potentially at least as harmful as is public sharing of coordinates.
Perhaps important to add that the hide and feeding station activites of local guides now cater as much to local photographers as they do to foreign birders.

I'm not so sure what should be the lessons of this situation. Sadly, any interest in the birds in these locations, both from birders and photographers, independant or with guides, all risk to cause harm to birds.

While I find the recently emerged trend of bird photography in Vietnam a somewhat hopeful sign, with finally (some) people in Vietnam being interested in living birds in the wild, instead of dead or caged birds, in the short term this trend seems to do more harm than good to the birds.

I just hope that the interest in conservation in the country increases fast enough to have some effect on better actions of authorities and awareness of the general population before its too late for its many treasures.
 
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