wagtail in Turkey (1 Viewer)

[Valéry Schollaert]

Hi all,

This juvie wagtail was on the shore of lake Van (Eastern Turkey) with Yellow, Citrine and White Wagtails. I've never seen such a young Citrine and I have some hope it might be one. Thanks for your opinion, cheers !

 

[Andy Adcock]

Looking at 'Pipits and Wagtails', Alstrom et al, my own observation would be that it's too white, both on the throat and the underparts for juvenile Citrine, a lot of black on the top of the head too?

The wing bars too, look too white and I think I'd expect to see a greyer, less warm, cheek but these are only my personal, interpretations of the plates.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Looking at 'Pipits and Wagtails', Alstrom et al, my own observation would be that it's too white, both on the throat and the underparts for juvenile Citrine, a lot of black on the top of the head too?

The wing bars too, look too white and I think I'd expect to see a greyer, less warm, cheek but these are only my personal, interpretations of the plates.

Interesting, I thought about citrine because those parts are white...

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Valerie,

not much of help here, but as you have allready know, I suppose, a juvenile White Wagtail can be excluded by clear and strong olive, brown and yellow tones in the back and wing. Head pattern with dark, blackish crown is also better for Yellow/Citrine than for White.

But further? I havent seen a juvenile Citrine yet, so its one of those threads I learn from, but: according to literature, juvenile Citrines are said to have prominent white wingbars. Your bird looks like the juvenile Yellow Wagtails of ssp flava, that I see in central Europe. Your bird wouldnt stand out among them, with greater coverts are tipped cream-white with a yellowish tinge.

Its hard to be certain, but I think the undertail-coverts have a slight yellow-buffish wash. This can be explainend by reflection of vegetation and or blurred out of focus vegetation, but shouldnt a Citrine have white undertail-coverts?

Conclusion? Does this mean, this is a Yellow Wagtail for me? No, saying, that your bird looks like juvenile flava Yellow Wagtails isnt much of help, as juvenile Yellow and Citrine are very similar according to literature.

Interesting picture. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

I think the undertail-coverts have a slight yellow-buffish wash

Thanks Alexander

That is the reason I have doubts. This wagtail looked quite different from all (numerous) juvie Yellow Wags around, but this yellow tinge is not good for Citrine indeed. It it slight though, hence my need of confirmation. I hope some experienced guys in juv Citrine would help us !

 

[Andy Adcock]

Hello Valerie,

not much of help here, but as you have allready know, I suppose, a juvenile White Wagtail can be excluded by clear and strong olive, brown and yellow tones in the back and wing. Head pattern with dark, blackish crown is also better for Yellow/Citrine than for White.

But further? I havent seen a juvenile Citrine yet, so its one of those threads I learn from, but: according to literature, juvenile Citrines are said to have prominent white wingbars. Your bird looks like the juvenile Yellow Wagtails of ssp flava, that I see in central Europe. Your bird wouldnt stand out among them, with greater coverts are tipped cream-white with a yellowish tinge.

Interesting picture. Thanks for sharing!

Which literature?

The book I'm using, illustrates juveniles of Citrine and Yellow, both are shown with buffy wing bars, unlike White Wagtail which has white wing bars.

 

[Richard Prior]

Which literature?

The book I'm using, illustrates juveniles of Citrine and Yellow, both are shown with buffy wing bars, unlike White Wagtail which has white wing bars.

In Collins for example Andy, the wing bars are white.

 

[mummymonkey]

In Eric Simms book, for imm. citrine - "pale buff or creamy white below, lack a yellow vent, sport striking white wing bars"

 

[Andy Adcock]

In Collins for example Andy, the wing bars are white.

The illustrations there are for 1st winter, not juvenile?

 

[Richard Prior]

The illustrations there are for 1st winter, not juvenile?

You’re right, the plate is of an October bird. However, on looking in Shirihai and Svensson’s WPal photographic guide I found a July juv, the photo bears out their description: “juv of allCitrine races characterised by clear blackish lateral crown stripes and solid dark gorget or breast patch; white wing-bars broad and prominent, underparts buffish off-white”.

 

[jurek]

Yellow Wagtail for me. Citrine should have broader, more prominent wingbars. And the undertail looks yellow.

White Wagtail should be more grey above, and have black breast band not such random blotches.

 

[Andy Adcock]

You’re right, the plate is of an October bird. However, on looking in Shirihai and Svensson’s WPal photographic guide I found a July juv, the photo bears out their description: “juv of allCitrine races characterised by clear blackish lateral crown stripes and solid dark gorget or breast patch; white wing-bars broad and prominent, underparts buffish off-white”.

Is anyone looking at Pipits and Wagtails?

This is the only book that illustrates all three juvenile in question here and the only one with white wing bars as a juvenile (not 1st winter), is White Wagtail. However, the bird is in moult so they could be 1st winter plumage wing bars rather than juvenile?

 

[Richard Prior]

Is anyone looking at Pipits and Wagtails?

This is the only book that illustrates all three juvenile in question here and the only one with white wing bars as a juvenile (not 1st winter), is White Wagtail. However, the bird is in moult so they could be 1st winter plumage wing bars rather than juvenile?

I’d ask for your money back then Andy, someone has blundered

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Which literature?

The book I'm using, illustrates juveniles of Citrine and Yellow, both are shown with buffy wing bars, unlike White Wagtail which has white wing bars.

Hello Andy,
please look here:
Hinweise zur Bestimmung der Zitronenstelze Motacilla citreola (Identification of Citrine Wagtail Motacilla citreola). January 1990. Peter H. Barthel and Christopher Schmidt
Its available as a download at: http://www.limicola.de/downloads.html
All articles there are in german, but have english captions and a summary.


Regarding to the OP Wagtail, it should be noted, that juvenile Yellow Wagtails can have even whiter wingbars thn this bird.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Interesting input guys, thank you