What binoculars do you think have the most WOW factor! (1 Viewer)

[[email protected]]

I got the Kowa Genesis's 8x32 and they are very high quality and their optics are very good . I would say slightly better than the Bresser's but I did my CA test and I still see CA at the top of my black smokestack against a white sky as I do with all my binoculars. No different and no better. The sweetspot is smallish on the Kowa's I think for their price. Although the mechanics and ergonomics are very good on them I don't think they are worth $1200.00. They are not worth 6x the price of the Bresser's and they are not quite up to alpha level optics. Perhaps a rung below. Then I am trying my Bresser's and I go to screw out the eyecups and one of the eyecups FALLS off in my hand. OH GREAT! It looks like they are glued on with maybe two little spots of glue. I swear I am not buying any more Chinese POS binoculars no matter how much Frank rants and raves about them. The optics are very good on them but the build quality is crap. I have hardly used them! That would be great if you have these things in Costa Rica on an expensive birding trip and they let you down like this. Stick with your alpha's. Sorry Frank they just lost my recommendation!

I think it's getting to the point that the optics in some of the Chinese binoculars are ok but I would never suggest someone buy a made in China bino because their "quality control" is virtually non existent. Being a building contractor I deal with Chinese "quality control" on a daily basis. Makita, Hitachi, and other tool manufacturers are out sourcing to China a lot and the Chinese can take a proven tool design, manufacture it with the parent company's blessing and still totally screw it up.

We use to have a corner in the tool trailer we called the junk corner were we would put a tool that was temporary out of service (like needing a new power cord or what not). We know call it the China corner and it really is junk corner because the Chinese made tools aren't even worth repairing. We used to get years out of a framing saw (made in the US or Japan) but are lucky to get a few months out of one of the made on China tools. When I buy tools anymore I stay away from Lowes or Home Depot and go to an industrial supplier or buy from a pawn shop. It's analogous to buying binoculars, I'd much rather but a used tool (or bino) made in Japan or Germany than a shiny new one from China. I'm sure someone will comment on my anti Chinese sentiment but I have nothing against the Chinese people just their shoddy products.

I'm finishing up a turn key house and the homeowner picked out some beautiful lighting fixtures without consulting me or the electrician. Pretty as they were they didn't work and our electrician had to rewire brand new fixtures....and yes they were made in China. When someone does a review on a Chinese binocular I'll give it a cursory glance but even if the optics are rated highly I wouldn't consider buying it....all that nice glass isn't worth squat if the mechanical components start falling apart. When someone is reviewing a binocular here on the forum and omits where the bino is manufactured I usually ask and if the bino is made in China I usually don't even bother with reading the rest of the posts concerning that particular binocular. To me it doesn't matter how good the optics are in a binocular when the mechanical construction and especially the durability are so suspect. Still amazes me on the Cloudy Nights forum when posters wonder about whether their new Chinese binocular will be collimated well enough to be used....am I the only one who finds such blatant lack of quality control problematic.

Sorry for the rant but bottom line whether you're building a house or building a tool or building a binocular there is NO excuse for poor workmanship.

Steve

 

[[email protected]]

The optics are very good on them but the build quality is crap. I have hardly used them! That would be great if you have these things in Costa Rica on an expensive birding trip and they let you down like this. Stick with your alpha's. Sorry Frank they just lost my recommendation!

Dennis

I can't imagine anyone going on an expensive birding trip and relying on a Chinese bino for their primary glass. If cost is an issue they would be much better served with a used bino from a quality manufacturer.

Steve

 

[[email protected]]

Exactly. It is so irritating because their QC is non-existant or what it is they are not as skilled as the Germans, Japanese and Austrians at assembly. They glue one eyepiece on good and then they forget to glue the next ten. Whoever designed these Bresser's did a good job on the optics it's just the Chinese can't build them to spec. It is hard enough using a binocular birding or for astronomy without your eyecup falling on the ground somewhere. I am DONE with Chinese until they prove to me their QC has improved. Life is too short to be screwing around with crap like that.

 

[[email protected]]

Exactly. It is so irritating because their QC is non-existant or what it is they are not as skilled as the Germans, Japanese and Austrians at assembly. They glue one eyepiece on good and then they forget to glue the next ten. Whoever designed these Bresser's did a good job on the optics it's just the Chinese can't build them to spec. It is hard enough using a binocular birding or for astronomy without your eyecup falling on the ground somewhere. I am DONE with Chinese until they prove to me their QC has improved. Life is too short to be screwing around with crap like that.

Very rare to hear me say this but on this issue I agree with you 100%. As I mentioned earlier when a reviewer praises a Chinese binoculars optics I don't even take note of it because from past experience I know how suspect the build quality will be. It might last for a few weeks or months but will it hold up to many years of use like my very well used Japanese and German binoculars? As you might have guessed that was a rhetorical question.
Steve

Steve

 

[stephen b]

It goes to all levels and almost everything we touch when we deal with this out sourcing to China.

Case in point- we had our HVAC service tech out to my office to fix a blown capacitor in the control panel of our Gas furnace. 2nd time in 90 days. They covered the service call and the part under their companies (the HVAC company) warranty since it was within 6 months. But the HVAC company is out that time and repair for a part that should have lasted longer. He said the catch is, it is a very inexpensive part since it is made in China and no US companies will make them to compete with such a low price. So the industry is stuck at buying these cheaply made parts and they end up losing money on service calls. And in the long run it all gets passed on to us. He said they do not even try and recover the part cost from the supplier- because it is not worth it. And there is no way they can test these before installing them because they are fully contained and either they work or they don't. The problem is they do not last long. He said his service manager said he would pay a lot more for a USA made product if there was anyone making them.

The Chinese in his ( the tech's) opinion do not really care about this. They are just making the money up front and if it fails so be it. They know there will not be any real consequence on their part. We are be played and had as fools.

 

[pompadour]

... I can't imagine anyone going on an expensive birding trip and relying on a Chinese bino for their primary glass. ...

More responses to that, I think, will be timely and useful to many. Example: myself. For such a trip, substituting "important" for "expensive", wouldn't have thought twice about taking a very good "Chinese" bin for crucial use. Now, after reading that, I'm hesitant! Would like to know of people's actual bad experiences, as examples of what could go wrong. And what are some examples of clearly more reliable "non-C." bins other than the "alphas"? Thanks.

 

[Leif]

I like your real world observation approach better also and I agree with you that it is hard to really pinpoint and quantify something as variable as CA. ... The thing is there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here on Bird Forum whose breadth of knowledge and technical expertise is really amazing so taking the attitude that you know more than everybody is not going to work. Henry is a great contributor to Bird Forum and his objective tests are interesting but personally I don't find them as valuable as what some of the people have to say about their personal experience with CA has been. That's what I value the most and it has helped me choose and use binoculars for birding more than Henry's CA boxes.

Dennis, you are right that the strength of BF is the number of posters, and the range of views and experiences. Both subjective observation and objective tests both have their place, and neither is superior. The problem with objective measurement is relating it to real life otherwise it is only of academic interest. And the problem with user experiences is that they are subjective, and hence personal psychology enters into the equation.

And I happen to like informal reviews, even though they are completely un-rigorous, and uncontrolled, as even they can provide interesting information.I am sure most people here are intelligent enough to not take such reviews too seriously.

Exactly. And the reason CA is hard to measure objectively and quantify.

There is more than sample variation. I have tried many samples of varous binoculars and seen awful CA, given the right lighting. There are others here who see it too. This is not like magnification distortion, which we all see, but react to differently. I assume the explanation lies in psychology rather than physiology or classical optics theory, though I could be proved wrong.

I prefer side by side comparisons or meticulously gathered and recorded results more than the "I remember" type of reviews. I pride myself on being objective and I'm blessed with an eidetic memory but I don't even trust myself if specific results/tests weren't duly recorded or done in real time.

I also like the side by side comparisons, especially when done by a group of people. The Italian tests are an interesting read, with a good atttempt to combine subjective impressions in an organised manner.

The problem with objective tests is that they do not capture enough data to be of practical use on their own, in my opinion of course. No doubt knowing that N samples of binocular X have a full aperture resolution of Y arc seconds might be of interest to many here. And knowing that N samples of binocular X show a range of full aperture resolutions is interesting as it tells us something about sample variation.

Maybe the FL but not the SVs. Allbinos, for all of their panning of the Zens, gave them a much better CA score than the SV (8.7 vs 7.2), slightly better than the EDG (8.5) and almost as good as the FL (9.2).

In my experience the CA tests on the Albinos web site are worthless. For example they give the same score to the Nikon 8x32SE and the 8.5x42 SV, and yet the latter can be induced to show obvious off axis purple fringing given appropriate lighting, far more so than the SE. Now how you score that is subjective, but in my view the SE has far better CA control, as does the Zeiss 8x42 FL. I cannot explain this, and unfortunately they do not give enough detail of their tests for me to comment. Do they use natural light or an artificial source? What are the light levels? What is the target?

I think that kind of behaviour is unethical.

Hermann

If the purchaser knows they will return it then yes, it is surely unethical. It would surely be better to write to the distributor and ask for a review sample. But it probably will not harm Amazon as they are so big.

Unethical and it raises the possibility that retailers might change their policy because of "serial" testers such as Dennis.

In the UK we have Distance Selling Regulations. What this means is that if you buy from a newpaper/magazine advert, or via an online web site, then you have a right to try the product, and return it if you do not like it. The regs do not apply to special orders (custom made furniture, for example), or items where hygiene would be an issue.

I'm sure someone will comment on my anti Chinese sentiment but I have nothing against the Chinese people just their shoddy products.

Most consumer goods I buy are made in China, including my iPods, some camera lenses, DAB radios, DIY tools and so on. The quality is very high. I also have some Chinese torches which are marvelous, beautifully machined. And I have a Chinese torch that is carp. Many Western companies outsource to China, and apply their own QC. Some Chinese companies are starting to sell direct, and their QC can be good. But many Chinese companies that sell direct have poor QC. Without evidence, I cannot comment on the QC of companies like Hawke. But I can say that the value for money is outstanding. Examine the product in the shop and make sure you get a good one.

Errr, sorry for the long post. |:$|

 

[FrankD]

Several comments.....

For one.....

Dennis,

Would you please take a pic of the Bresser with the issue you mentioned. I am having a difficult time understanding what you related. You mentioned twisting out the eyecup and having the entire eyecup fall off. You go on to say that it was only held on by two spots of glue. Are you referring to the twist up eyecup or the rubber covering? If it is the former then I am having a hard time picturing a rotating eyecup somehow being attached by two spots of glue.

If it is the latter then simply put a few drops of superglue on it to keep the rubber cover in place and you are good to go.

As for Chinese quality control being an issue, I certainly will not argue that I have run into more QC issues than non-Chinese products. However, with all due respect I find the above comments about not even bothering to read reviews of Chinese binoculars distressing for several reasons. I do not want to comment further though on that side of the issue.

However, it isn't as if non-Chinese manufacturers are somehow immune to quality control issues. One only needs to do a little digging to find threads commenting on fingerprints on prisms, focusing tension issues and a variety of other QC concerns in non-Chinese models.

Second, nowadays, a company's name doesn't necessarily guarantee non-Chinese origin. Help me out again, where is the Nikon ED 50 spotting scope made? I don't remember hearing any quality control issues with that scope. How about the new Zeiss Terra ED? Yes, Chinese there too. Minox? Yes, some of their products are Chinese as well. I haven't heard of quality control issues being at a higher level than normal.

I think the real issue here is making conclusions about all Chinese manufactured binoculars just because they are Chinese. That broad generalization over all their products is what I have an issue with.

Lastly, I would ask exactly what a consumer is paying for when they pay 10 times the price for a high end European model? Quality control? Maybe slightly better but 10x the cost for quality control?

Warranty and/or customer service? Maybe but then we have companies such as Vortex or Zen Ray who have that base covered and yet they are able to offer products at a fraction of the cost of European models.

Research and development costs? Maybe, but at some point those costs have to have been recouped for that product so do the prices then drop afterwards?

Help me out here, what does the average consumer get, from a practical perspective, from a $2500 model that they can't from a $200, $500 or $800 model?

Lastly, I have two binoculars and a spotting scope now that have seen a year and a half of very regular use. I have had zero problems with them. Do you want to take a guess where they were manufactured and/or what their performance level is? Wait, scratch that, one of them was made in the Phillipines and not China.

 

[[email protected]]

Good post and very true and I agree with you.

"Examine the product in the shop and make sure you get a good one."

Hard to do buying online.

 

[[email protected]]

Sorry my experience in the field with Chinese binoculars doesn't mirror yours. Every Chinese binocular I have had has had some type of problem either mechanical or optical. I gave up on Zen Rays because every one I owned had something wrong with it. I have NEVER had an eyecup fall off on my Zeiss, Leica, Nikon or Swarovski binoculars even with a lot of use. It was the rubber eyecup that fell off and I don't think I should HAVE to glue a binocular back together that I just bought and have only had for two weeks and haven't even used that much. I returned it and I will not buy another. If the rubber eyecup falls off after two weeks what is going to happen to the binocular a year down the road with heavy use? No more Chinese for me. You have just been lucky Frank. Your Chinese binoculars have been the one out of ten that are good.

 

[[email protected]]

It goes to all levels and almost everything we touch when we deal with this out sourcing to China.

Case in point- we had our HVAC service tech out to my office to fix a blown capacitor in the control panel of our Gas furnace. 2nd time in 90 days. They covered the service call and the part under their companies (the HVAC company) warranty since it was within 6 months. But the HVAC company is out that time and repair for a part that should have lasted longer. He said the catch is, it is a very inexpensive part since it is made in China and no US companies will make them to compete with such a low price. So the industry is stuck at buying these cheaply made parts and they end up losing money on service calls. And in the long run it all gets passed on to us. He said they do not even try and recover the part cost from the supplier- because it is not worth it. And there is no way they can test these before installing them because they are fully contained and either they work or they don't. The problem is they do not last long. He said his service manager said he would pay a lot more for a USA made product if there was anyone making them.

The Chinese in his ( the tech's) opinion do not really care about this. They are just making the money up front and if it fails so be it. They know there will not be any real consequence on their part. We are be played and had as fools.

Stephen

This is a perfect example of the issues I run into on a daily basis. Manufacturers want to keep the cost down so they buy cheaper Chinese components that don't last near as long.

At least you used to have the option of paying more for a high quality part but in many instances that isn't the case. The Chinese have succeeding in pricing other competitors out of the market so you are forced to buy Chinese and guess what....now that they are the only game in town they start charging the same the premium suppliers did....but the quality is still mediocre at best.

Steve

 

[FrankD]

Sorry my experience in the field with Chinese binoculars doesn't mirror yours. Every Chinese binocular I have had has had some type of problem either mechanical or optical. I gave up on Zen Rays because every one I owned had something wrong with it. I have NEVER had an eyecup fall off on my Zeiss, Leica, Nikon or Swarovski binoculars even with a lot of use. It was the rubber eyecup that fell off and I don't think I should HAVE to glue a binocular back together that I just bought and have only had for two weeks and haven't even used that much. I returned it and I will not buy another. If the rubber eyecup falls off after two weeks what is going to happen to the binocular a year down the road with heavy use? No more Chinese for me. You have just been lucky Frank. Your Chinese binoculars have been the one out of ten that are good.

Wait a second. You received the Kowaa yesterday and the Bresser eyecup issue happened some time afterwards. It is now 8:25 am the next day and you somehow returned them already?

 

[[email protected]]

More responses to that, I think, will be timely and useful to many. Example: myself. For such a trip, substituting "important" for "expensive", wouldn't have thought twice about taking a very good "Chinese" bin for crucial use. Now, after reading that, I'm hesitant! Would like to know of people's actual bad experiences, as examples of what could go wrong. And what are some examples of clearly more reliable "non-C." bins other than the "alphas"? Thanks.

Pomp

I have a cabinet that contains over forty examples of clearly more reliable "non-C"binos manufactured by Nikon, Canon, Pentax and will post a pic later. Many of these binos were manufactured in the 60-70s and would be well served with the latest coatings but thay are as sharp and well built as many of todays alphas. Would much rather have a quality used bino from the era when quality workmanship was a given than one of the latest China binos.

It's very evident to me that either the Chinese manufacturers don't allow enough time for their workers to achieve some semblance of quality workmanship or the Chinese employees themselves don't care about building a quality product. If working conditions in some of the Chinese manufacturing facilities are as deplorable as depicted in some reports it might explain some of the problem.

Steve

 

[pompadour]

Steve, actually I was thinking of currently produced instruments - though I'd certainly like to see that photo/s! Am pretty confused about which makes or models are made in China. Does Nikon, for example, make the EDGs in Japan and everything else in China? Their HG/Premier models? Does "KOWA JAPAN" somewhere on the body mean it's made there? Etc. Like a recent thread attempting a list of all models with field flattening, it may be useful to have a list of all makes or models not made in China, if they are far fewer than those that are, and if that makes such a difference.

 

[Steve C]

Pomp

I have a cabinet that contains over forty examples of clearly more reliable "non-C"binos manufactured by Nikon, Canon, Pentax and will post a pic later. Many of these binos were manufactured in the 60-70s and would be well served with the latest coatings but thay are as sharp and well built as many of todays alphas. Would much rather have a quality used bino from the era when quality workmanship was a given than one of the latest China binos.

It's very evident to me that either the Chinese manufacturers don't allow enough time for their workers to achieve some semblance of quality workmanship or the Chinese employees themselves don't care about building a quality product. If working conditions in some of the Chinese manufacturing facilities are as deplorable as depicted in some reports it might explain some of the problem.

Steve

No doubt you do have a cabinet full. That proves the point only that the non Chinese sources were producing binoculars before the Chinese were, that's all. Now understand here, I'm as disgusted at junk products a much as you are. You want a fun time? Try tearing into an 8 ton disk whose Chinese bearings just went to pot and you only replaced them a month ago. Guess what, IF you can find another bearing source (name the country including the US) those big bearings are not one blasted bit better either. The last of the Fafnir and Timken USA produced bearings were no better than the outsourced replacements from those companies are today. We used to be able to get quality replacement parts but that seems like some sort of strange semi parallel universe.

The problem is not so much China, it's why the companies are in China to begin with. Broken parts sell more parts, so we get cheap parts. The Chinese are perfectly capable of quality, the problem is that the companies that are accepting the junk are satisfied with the junk they are getting.

 

[FrankD]

Steve, actually I was thinking of currently produced instruments - though I'd certainly like to see that photo/s! Am pretty confused about which makes or models are made in China. Does Nikon, for example, make the EDGs in Japan and everything else in China? Their HG/Premier models? Does "KOWA JAPAN" somewhere on the body mean it's made there? Etc. Like a recent thread attempting a list of all models with field flattening, it may be useful to have a list of all makes or models not made in China, if they are far fewer than those that are, and if that makes such a difference.

An excellent idea pomp. I will start it.

 

[etudiant]

Steve, actually I was thinking of currently produced instruments - though I'd certainly like to see that photo/s! Am pretty confused about which makes or models are made in China. Does Nikon, for example, make the EDGs in Japan and everything else in China? Their HG/Premier models? Does "KOWA JAPAN" somewhere on the body mean it's made there? Etc. Like a recent thread attempting a list of all models with field flattening, it may be useful to have a list of all makes or models not made in China, if they are far fewer than those that are, and if that makes such a difference.

The challenge is to find out what 'made in...' actually means.
The production process is so entangled that it is hard to tell where anything was made. Just because it says 'made in Germany' does not mean all the parts were produced there, it may simply refer to a majority of the value added, including assembly, having taken place there.
The mechanical quality of binoculars is the area of highest variability among the differing brands today, but the topic is not well covered by the reviewers.
That is understandable, few reviewers have the resources to do a tear down product inspection, which is probably the only way to verify that the mechanicals are built for the long haul.
That leaves the buyer dependent on forums such as this one and on user feedback to get some sense of the overall product quality. Absent that, the options are the 'Dencomatic' (TM) high frequency product exchange or to stick to the known brands.

 

[[email protected]]

No doubt you do have a cabinet full. That proves the point only that the non Chinese sources were producing binoculars before the Chinese were, that's all. Now understand here, I'm as disgusted at junk products a much as you are. You want a fun time? Try tearing into an 8 ton disk whose Chinese bearings just went to pot and you only replaced them a month ago. Guess what, IF you can find another bearing source (name the country including the US) those big bearings are not one blasted bit better either. The last of the Fafnir and Timken USA produced bearings were no better than the outsourced replacements from those companies are today. We used to be able to get quality replacement parts but that seems like some sort of strange semi parallel universe.

The problem is not so much China, it's why the companies are in China to begin with. Broken parts sell more parts, so we get cheap parts. The Chinese are perfectly capable of quality, the problem is that the companies that are accepting the junk are satisfied with the junk they are getting.

Steve

I know my biggest gripe is that I'm more than willing to pay for better quality merchandise but lots of times it just isn't available. If I'm buying new about the only professional quality power tools are some of the industrial grade Makita and Hitachi still made in Japan and Fes tools made in West Germany. Granted they cost over three times what the Chinese made tools do but they are a great bargain because they last for years. We build a lot of large (6,000-10,000sqft) homes and I literally buy my fasteners (nails and sheathing staplers by the ton. The nails/staples arrive on pallets on a flat bed truck and we unload them with my telehandler. I have some nail guns/staplers (made in Japan and Germany) that have shot hundreds of tons of fasteners without missing a beat but the newer Chinese tools often start misfiring after only a few boxes.

I have no problem with manufacturers making an economy line so the guys who watch HGTV can purchase a tool and play weekend contractor; however, the manufacturers are now more concerned about that part of the market and many aren't making the quality tools now. There is a lot more profit in selling twenty mediocre nail guns at 300.00 than one extremely well made one for700.00, especially since the well made tool probably won't even need so much as an o ring for 10 years or more. To me the tool situation is analogous to optics, I'm afraid that in a few years even if you want to buy a quality product it may not even be an option anymore.

Steve

 

[[email protected]]

Steve

I know my biggest gripe is that I'm more than willing to pay for better quality merchandise but lots of times it just isn't available. If I'm buying new about the only professional quality power tools are some of the industrial grade Makita and Hitachi still made in Japan and Fes tools made in West Germany. Granted they cost over three times what the Chinese made tools do but they are a great bargain because they last for years. We build a lot of large (6,000-10,000sqft) homes and I literally buy my fasteners (nails and sheathing staplers by the ton. The nails/staples arrive on pallets on a flat bed truck and we unload them with my telehandler. I have some nail guns/staplers (made in Japan and Germany) that have shot hundreds of tons of fasteners without missing a beat but the newer Chinese tools often start misfiring after only a few boxes.

I have no problem with manufacturers making an economy line so the guys who watch HGTV can purchase a tool and play weekend contractor; however, the manufacturers are now more concerned about that part of the market and many aren't making the quality tools now. There is a lot more profit in selling twenty mediocre nail guns at 300.00 than one extremely well made one for700.00, especially since the well made tool probably won't even need so much as an o ring for 10 years or more. To me the tool situation is analogous to optics, I'm afraid that in a few years even if you want to buy a quality product it may not even be an option anymore.

Steve

That is VERY interesting Steve that there are so many areas where Chinese QC is lacking. I never realized that even their shoddy workmanship is so prevalent with even power tools. When the rubber eyecup cover popped off the Dressers it enabled me to see the inner mechanism of the rotating eyepieces and I was not impressed. I am not an engineer but I have seen the mechanism of Swarovski eyecups and they looked much beefier and even I could tell they would last much longer than the Bresser's. This is an area that is overlooked in the reviews we do here on Bird Forum but just as another member said it is hard to take a binocular apart and examine just how well it is built. The Chinese binoculars look pretty good from the surface but beware what lies within so it is false value to think your $200.00 Bresser because it has pretty good optics is a better value than a $1200.00 alpha because down the road I think the alpha is going to be way more durable and trouble free than the Chinese binoculars.

 

[[email protected]]

Steve, actually I was thinking of currently produced instruments - though I'd certainly like to see that photo/s! Am pretty confused about which makes or models are made in China. Does Nikon, for example, make the EDGs in Japan and everything else in China? Their HG/Premier models? Does "KOWA JAPAN" somewhere on the body mean it's made there? Etc. Like a recent thread attempting a list of all models with field flattening, it may be useful to have a list of all makes or models not made in China, if they are far fewer than those that are, and if that makes such a difference.

Pomp

As far as Nikon their HG/Premier roofs, EII, SE, and premium IF porros are still made in Japan. Enclosing a couple of pics, first pic is of some of the pricier stuff in the safe.Second pic is of many Nikon, Canon, and Pentax porros in one of my optics cabinets. You won't find a Chinese binocular in either pic.

Steve