Yeah. Maybe some closeup pictures of the focus mechanisms and eyecups would be helpful. This is exciting.
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What binoculars do you think have the most WOW factor! (1 Viewer)
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Comparison of the Leupold Hawthrone 7x42 and the Vanguard Endeavor ED 8x42 coming in a few days. It will be interesting to see if the ED glass in the Endeavor will prove superior over the regular glass in the Hawthorne and if the mechanics of the Chinese binocular will compare to the Japanese. These are two of the top value binoculars contenders coming together for the first time. Now that Frank's Bresser 8x42 ED is out of the picture on a technicality these two represent the best choices in a good all around roof prism binocular for less than $300.00.
bh46118
Well-known member
Some people who have used them don't see anything special about their image either. I don't get it.
After having compared the Bresser 8x42 ED, Leupold Hawthorne 7x42 and now the Vanguard Endeavor ED 8x42 over the past week I am struck with really how close optically they are too each other. The only real difference between these three is the Bresser has a bigger FOV. The Bresser and the Endeavor with their ED glass had slightly better CA control than the Hawthorne but CA was still there. Sweetspot size, edges, contrast,color saturation, brightness or whatever are all about the same. These are all amazing roof prism binoculars for less than $300.00. I would say they perform within 95% of the current alpha binoculars so really there is no reason outside of maybe durability or mechanical construction to get an alpha and spend $2K. The Bresser seems like it has a lot of build quality problems so you might want to avoid that one so which of the other two did I prefer. The Hawthorne and the Endeavor are very close optically. Of course the Hawthorne is 7x so it has the advantage of better DOF and a bigger exit pupil. They are both equally sharp on-axis meaning very good. It comes down to personal preference which one you like the best. I kept the Hawthorne because I feel after looking them both over it has the best build quality. The Japanese still build them a little better. I think the Endeavor has a cheaper look about it and you can tell that it is Chinese just by the look of it. The Hawthorne is shorter by about 1/2 inch and it is more compact which I preferred. The eye cups for example work smoother and feel tighter on the Hawthorne. Of course the Endeavor is open bridge and you may prefer the feel of it. I didn't. I personally enjoyed the better DOF in the 7x. It just made viewing more enjoyable and is a good complement to my 8x binoculars. The point is these three all have incredible optics for sub $300 binoculars. They could easily hold their own with even alphas. When I compared these two roofs I also had my Opticron 8x42 HRWP and as usual the porro outperformed the roofs being sharper on-axis and presenting a clearer and more natural 3D view. The porro view just seems more RELAXED and is awesomely sharp especially on-axis. You think you have it in focus and you move the focus wheel a little more and it gets even sharper! But any of these roofs are REALLY good and you could probably be happy with any of them. My pick is the Hawthorne though. To me it has the best combination of quality and optics to slightly beat out the Chinese competitors.
bh46118
Well-known member
Dennis
I know that part of your fun is pushing peoples buttons, but what you said here is 100% spot on. The super slow focus on these models allow for ultra fine increments of adjustment. I'm sure for birding it's a poor feature, but for getting the sharpest image, I find it perfect. For people who want to experience true best of the best resolution and brightness at a price common every day Joe can afford, especially if you buy them used or on clearance, there is nothing else.
Your assessment of the IF Porros in my opinion is correct. I hope you don't see fit to throw them under the bus anytime soon. :-O
I know that part of your fun is pushing peoples buttons, but what you said here is 100% spot on. The super slow focus on these models allow for ultra fine increments of adjustment. I'm sure for birding it's a poor feature, but for getting the sharpest image, I find it perfect. For people who want to experience true best of the best resolution and brightness at a price common every day Joe can afford, especially if you buy them used or on clearance, there is nothing else.
Your assessment of the IF Porros in my opinion is correct. I hope you don't see fit to throw them under the bus anytime soon. :-O
eitanaltman
Well-known member
Dennis -- Small bit of advice. You should really separate your reviews into a few smaller paragraphs. It becomes very difficult to read a giant block of continuous text. Use that Enter/Return key 
So.... Are you going to post the results of your "groundbreaking" build quality testing regimen? I'm curious as to what you think of the overall build of the Vanguards, e.g. focus knob quality, robustness of the eyecup rotation, IPD hinge tension, diopter adjustment. To me it's one of the better China-bins in terms of overall build quality.
My recollection is that the Vanguard had a very smooth focus knob with fast gearing, and it also has a very slick locking diopter with scale that you don't typically see at this price point.
So.... Are you going to post the results of your "groundbreaking" build quality testing regimen? I'm curious as to what you think of the overall build of the Vanguards, e.g. focus knob quality, robustness of the eyecup rotation, IPD hinge tension, diopter adjustment. To me it's one of the better China-bins in terms of overall build quality.
My recollection is that the Vanguard had a very smooth focus knob with fast gearing, and it also has a very slick locking diopter with scale that you don't typically see at this price point.
My Opticron 8x42 HRWP is not IF(Individual focus) nor is the Leupold Cascade 10x42. Which one are you talking about that is IF?
bh46118
Well-known member
Yes, I did evaluate the Vanguard build quality and I think it is very good. To me it is better than the Bresser's. The rubber eye cups are fastened at the front AND back with a lip of rubber as are the Hawthornes so there is no way they are coming off. The focus is very good and smooth and the ergonomics are nice. I prefer the shorter length of the Leupold over the Vanguard but you could be different depending on your hand size. The IPD adjustment on the Vanguard is nice and tight and perfect tension and the pull out and lock diopter is impressive in this price range. The eyecups rotate out with more precision on the Vanguard than the Bresser and they feel sturdier. I really don't think anything is going to come apart or break on the Vanguard or the Hawthorne anytime soon. I pushed and pulled at everything and they both look solid. The Vanguard is a good choice in an 8x birding binocular. I prefer the Hawthorne mainly because I like the 7x and there is not too many of them especially in this price range. They are both fantastic binoculars for this low of a price. You can't go wrong with either. The Hawthorne does have a little more CA than the Vanguard due to it's lack of ED glass I suspect.Dennis -- Small bit of advice. You should really separate your reviews into a few smaller paragraphs. It becomes very difficult to read a giant block of continuous text. Use that Enter/Return key
So.... Are you going to post the results of your "groundbreaking" build quality testing regimen? I'm curious as to what you think of the overall build of the Vanguards, e.g. focus knob quality, robustness of the eyecup rotation, IPD hinge tension, diopter adjustment. To me it's one of the better China-bins in terms of overall build quality.
My recollection is that the Vanguard had a very smooth focus knob with fast gearing, and it also has a very slick locking diopter with scale that you don't typically see at this price point.
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The on-axis sharpness of the Opticron and Leupold internal focus porro's is amazing. It goes beyond any roof I have seen. That is the main reason I like them. Very sharp and very clear. The FOV of the 8x is actually quite good it doesn' bother me at all.
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brocknroller
A professed porromaniac
At some point, about 8-10 years, Optolyth changed hands. The Via Novas replaced the Optolyth Royals, which were designed for hunters and had large formats, I think idea of the Via Novas was to widen their appeal by having smaller format roofs. The owner of Deutsch Optik, which was the exclusive distributor at the time, didn't like the Via Novas and thought the Royals were better (same deal with the older Alpin poros vs. the more modern looking porros that came after them).
When a new owner bought Optolyth, the owner of Deutsch Optik convinced him to go back to the original designs of the Optolyth Royal roofs and the Alpin porros. AFAIK, the Via Novas and more modern looking porros were discontinued.
http://www.deutscheoptik.com/images/Prods/OPT14051.jpg
http://www.deutscheoptik.com/images/Prods/OPT12021.jpg
And here's some info about Valdada:
http://www.opticsbrands.com/catalogue/binoculars/brand/valdada
Brock
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Are they any good?
eitanaltman
Well-known member
What are your thoughts on the optics of the Vanguard with respect to sweet spot size, edge performance, and distortion/curvature? They don't have as wide of a FOV as the other Chinabin ED's (7 degrees instead of 8) but one would assume that the tradeoff is superior performance across the field.
When I tried them at the bird fair I didn't have a ton of time with them but it felt like the sweet spot was very large relative to the FOV and there wasn't a lot of degradation towards the edge. By comparison, the typical open bridge ED Chinabin (e.g. Zen ED, Eagle Optics Ranger ED, Celestron Granite, etc) will have a wider FOV but a lot of pincushion and bad edges.
bh46118
Well-known member
The large amount of pincushion in my ED2 is the one thing about them that I really dislike. If it were about half the amount, the image would be absolutely golden at that price. A telephone pole at 50 yards away looks like it should have a string and arrow on it.
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Your right in what you said. The sweetspot size and edges and distortion are slightly better on the Vanguard and Hawthorne than they are on the Bresser. With a bigger FOV you almost always get more distortion of some kind in my experience. That's why anymore I personally would rather have a 7 degree field with less distortion than an 8 degree field with more distortion. I really like the 7 degree 7x42 Hawthornes. 390 FOV is enough and they have little distortion and nice edges. I also like my Opticron's 8x42 HRWP porro's and they are only 6.5 degrees. If I had to choose between the Bresser and the Vanguard I would take the Vanguard for a slightly bigger sweet spot and better build quality and the ergonomics are really almost as good as the Bresser. Remenber, I am saying slightly better. All of three of these binoculars are very close and they are all VERY good optically. You would be happy with any of these three. Best thing is to try all three and see what works best for you. I personally like the Hawthorne.
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Hi All,
Can you direct me to a chart that tests for user satisfaction????
I trust my gut. It tells me when something is wrong and when something is right. It also tells me to what degree ... I can live with this; no way Jose, and right on!!!
It's that simple. Trust your gut!
Does WOW come from your gut or a chart???? Think about that. If you have never looked at a chart thru a binocular... you have never had a WOW binocular experience. Doesn't make much sense, does it????
Mucking up these mucky waters,
CG
Can you direct me to a chart that tests for user satisfaction????
I trust my gut. It tells me when something is wrong and when something is right. It also tells me to what degree ... I can live with this; no way Jose, and right on!!!
It's that simple. Trust your gut!
Does WOW come from your gut or a chart???? Think about that. If you have never looked at a chart thru a binocular... you have never had a WOW binocular experience. Doesn't make much sense, does it????
Mucking up these mucky waters,
CG
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I get a WOW just looking through a good pair of porro's. You don't need a chart it is easy to tell how good a pair of binoculars are just by looking at nature and birds. Of course a distant license plate helps.
brocknroller
A professed porromaniac
Yepper, that was my main objection. I tried to live with it because the image was so sharp and so "clean," and I really liked the ergonomics, but finally, I could just not live with "Cupid's Bow".
The sweet spot was also significantly bigger in one EP than the other (same side on two samples). If the sweet spot were like the largest side in both EPs and the pincushion was cut in half, they would have been keepers.
I hope ZR or some other company resurrects these with a better balance of distortion and at least 70% sweet spot ON BOTH SIDES (one EP was 70% on both samples and the fall gradual for there out, but the other side was only 55% with a sharp fall off, but most of the edge field curvature that could be focused out).
Brock
Robert Wallace
Well-known member
Re Optolyth Alpin porros.
Never tried them, but they seemed very popular amongst UK birders in the 1980s, especially the 10x40.
The 8x30s (Osiris)were marketed towards women because of their light weight, around 13 ounces.
Never tried them, but they seemed very popular amongst UK birders in the 1980s, especially the 10x40.
The 8x30s (Osiris)were marketed towards women because of their light weight, around 13 ounces.
Here was one that sold on E-bay for $250.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Optolyth-8-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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