What causes audio becoming muddy during recording birds? (Like Mono/JPG quality) (1 Viewer)

[FlackoWeasel]

Hello again! I still feel bothered about the Rode Videomic Rycote failing me and making my audio mono/muddy but I today found out that the mic is a super cardioid and I am confused why that causes my audio to worsen when I changed nothing in my Tascam audio settings? As now I got a new mic (Behringer Videomic MS) and soon testing this out as it has stereo inside (I have to get a battery ) This one is also super-cardioid but I have seen videos where a guy moves from left to right and audio is still good, but when I recorded my bird, it was lower quality all of a sudden as soon as it was not super front of the mic? But on the tascam everything was perfect, somehow Rode videomic made my audio much crappier. I want to understand why and is there a way to fix it?

On this video you can hear how 2023 is so clear (PNG quality for me) and 2024 is suddenly JPG. My fav season is coming soon and I don't want to record bad audio of my favourite birds who only sing max 3 weeks.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Please note that the Rode Video mic (as per all supercardiodal mics) is mono.

I understand that the Behringer Videomic MS is a Mid-Side microphone. So you have two mics working together. A supercardiodal that records the bird in focus and a ‘figure of eight’ that records the background to create a stereo effect. To get this to work you should have a recorder that can decode the two mics are create the stereo effect. You cannot correctly use this mic or create a stereo image unless you set your recorder inputs correctly.

I haven’t listened to the recordings - to be honest the attachment scares me. Is there a reason you have created some type of video, rather than just providing two wave files from your Tascan recorder?

Please note that the Rode Video Mic has relatively low sensitivity (12.6 mv). I think the mic is probably designed for Vlogging of stuff up close. By comparison the old ME67 has a sensitivity of 50mV, so is far more sensitive. Presumably you are therefore cranking up the gain, which will create lots of noise and likely a poorer quality recording. A bit like camera lens, mics are designed with particular purposes in mind, and I am not sure the Rode mic you have chosen has been designed for wildlife recordings.

 

[Mono]

As Jon has said M/S is very different to L/R stereo and needs to be decoded as such. Playing one type as another can lead to weird effects.
L = M+S
R = M-S
M = L+R
S = L-R

If you are recording a single bird for id purposes then Mono (no pun intended) is often the best.

 

[FlackoWeasel]

Please note that the Rode Video mic (as per all supercardiodal mics) is mono.

I understand that the Behringer Videomic MS is a Mid-Side microphone. So you have two mics working together. A supercardiodal that records the bird in focus and a ‘figure of eight’ that records the background to create a stereo effect. To get this to work you should have a recorder that can decode the two mics are create the stereo effect. You cannot correctly use this mic or create a stereo image unless you set your recorder inputs correctly.

I haven’t listened to the recordings - to be honest the attachment scares me. Is there a reason you have created some type of video, rather than just providing two wave files from your Tascan recorder?

Please note that the Rode Video Mic has relatively low sensitivity (12.6 mv). I think the mic is probably designed for Vlogging of stuff up close. By comparison the old ME67 has a sensitivity of 50mV, so is far more sensitive. Presumably you are therefore cranking up the gain, which will create lots of noise and likely a poorer quality recording. A bit like camera lens, mics are designed with particular purposes in mind, and I am not sure the Rode mic you have chosen has been designed for wildlife recordings.

Sorry about that. I usually upload videos to YT so I can listen my birds whenever I work as I collect their songs and I want to have a collection of them in 1 place. I did not notice the quality issue before until I did this video where I noticed the sound difference. Provided the WAVs. I gave video bc I wanted to show the issue. But isn't Tascam dr-05x audio also mono, just it has 2 mics? So does that mean to record the bird with a mic, I have to set my settings to mono instead of stereo WHEN a microphone is connected? But when I record with behringer, I set the settings to stereo?

The bird on my audio was under a metre away, I record most BRWs under a metre. I have used gain on Tascam Dr-05x too and it doesnt worsen an audio. (TabuuBRW.wav file)

I was unaware of that the mic isn't for the stuff I do. I saw it on sale and bought it. After I realised the sound error last year, I started to read more about the mics and asked around.

And what is this MIC power thing? (added attachment) It says it can ruin a mic when it is battery powered but I have never touched this setting at all as I have no idea what it does. Yesterday I switched it on and off, but I couldn't understand what it did, only noticed bg sound was a bit more hearable vs bg sound was not.

My settings are:
24bit
sample 96k,
type stereo.
1h is 2gb


But how come my blackbird songs, where I also have used this same Rode mic, didn't have a JPG quality? Or do they have it but I can't hear it? (GlitchtapeTheBlackbird.wav)

 

[FlackoWeasel]

As Jon has said M/S is very different to L/R stereo and needs to be decoded as such. Playing one type as another can lead to weird effects.
L = M+S
R = M-S
M = L+R
S = L-R

If you are recording a single bird for id purposes then Mono (no pun intended) is often the best.

I have a bit problem understanding, what these letters mean?

 

[Jon.Bryant]

But isn't Tascam dr-05x audio also mono

The Tascam dr-05X is a stereo recorder, but stereo recording does not rely on one method. The built-in mics on the dr-05X are positioned facing outwards, and close together - this is close to an X/stereo configuration.

The Tascam dr-05x has a stereo mini-jack for attaching an external mic. I think that if you plug in a mono mic, then the mono mini-jack plug will make contact with the left and right channels and both channels will be identical. This is knows as dual mono. The user manual for your recorder only refers to using an external stereo mic, so perhaps someone can advise, if a mono mic will work, of if this could be cause of the poor recordings.

The recorder has no MS capability, so I don't think you can use a mid-side stereo microphone with the recorder, unless the mic processes the signal and outputs just a left and right channel. Mid-side is a completely different method for creating a stereo effect - see Stereo Methods, which provided diagrams of how mics are arranged in different methods. Figure 17, is animated and shows how the balance of mid and side recordings can be combined to create a narrow or wider stereo recording. This is actually one of the benefits of mid-side - you can adjust how 'wide' the recording sounds later when processing the sound.

Mono is referring to L=Left channel, R=Right channel, M=Mid (i.e. the signal captured by the supercardiodal mic), and S=Side (i.e. captured by the 'figure of eight' mic). For most stereo methods the left and right channel are created just by the left and right hand microphones - i.e. if you use the built-in mics, each signal from a mic is recorded to a separate channel. However, as Mono explains, for mid-side the L and R are created by combining the inputs from the two mics, hence the need for a device that can do this.

As for mic power, mics with small mini-jack connections generally require Plug-In Power (PiP), which is provided by the recorder. Mics can have their own battery power supply, in which case the recorder does not need to provide Plug-In Power to the mic. Your options are then

1. External mic without battery or with battery not installed - turn on PiP, so that microphone will work.
2. External mic with battery installed - turn off PiP, and power the microphone from the battery only.

If you do not power the microphone from either PiP or a battery, then the microphone will not work, and the recording will be awful.

The only real advantage/disadvantage of the powering options, is that PiP is a slight drain on recorder battery life, so if you have an external battery for the mic and turn off PiP, the recorder battery will last a bit longer.

 

[FlackoWeasel]

Oooh, had no idea about the PiP thing! Thank you for explaining stuff and the letters too! I read that the Behringer MS uses Plug in power, but when i inserted it in without battery, it did not work with Tascam Dr-05x. With battery, it works! As the site said it works both ways. Haven't been able to test it yet. (I only turned it on to see does battery work and mic)

EDIT: had no idea that the MS means Mid Side. I thought it was a product name 😅. The more i know lol

One last q - what about this microphone pair?

Professional Lavalier microphones - Stereo pair - Mono single

Not just for ASMR these lav mics are a valuable addition to anyone's audio kit! Give your YouTube channel/podcast a new sound that will have your audience focusing on you rather than the room noise and echo/straining to hear your voice, we'd recommend our very low noise lavalier microphone...

sr3d.co.uk

This also shows stereo if I get two of em, and if I get it right, it gets a Y shaped adapter to plug it in?

I saw that these mics are used in natureTec live cam on bird feeder. And it also mentions field recording. I plan getting these too "in case" other variants fail.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

But how come my blackbird songs, where I also have used this same Rode mic, didnt have a JPG quality?

I am not really sure that I see the problem. The three recordings seem OK to me, although the levels are not that loud.

Interestingly in the 2023 recording the volume in the left and right channels are not the same, although the signals look similar - which mic were you using?

The 2023 recording level is not that loud and peaks (in the left channel) at -9.15dB. The 2024 recording level is louder peaking at -6.44dB, the sonogram seems to show more low frequency noise, which I think is environmental. The Blackbird recording peaks at -8.52 and shows a lot more low frequency noise, which I again suspect is environmental, rather than equipment noise - this could be something as simple as a bit more wind, or distant traffic etc.

So all recordings have a relatively low signal to noise ratio, which means when you turn up the volume to listen to the recording, you are also 'turning up' the level of the unwanted noise. To increase signal to noise the best option is to locate the microphones closer to the bird. If you adjust the level on the recorder to increase the level of the recording (which is better than increasing the playback level), then you are also still increasing the volume of unwanted background noise.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

One last q - what about this microphone pair?

So this uses the Primo EM272 microphone elements that at very sensitive. This means you will get a much louder recording (assuming the same recording level). Sensitive mics are better at picking up quieter (and more distant sounds), but the drawback is that they will also pick up all environmental sounds, and as the mic elements are omni-directional (all directions), you will pick up all sounds around you (including unwanted environmental sounds).

The question is why do you want stereo? As Mono says, most people recording bird sounds focus on a single bird. A bird is a single sound source, so mono works very well and sounds good. If you get a reasonable shotgun (or parabola) then you have a directional mic, and this will assist with cutting out unwanted environmental noise.

Stereo works best for soundscapes or 'congested' environments. If you want to capture a dawn chorus, then stereo captures the fact that the Robin was on the left and the Blackbird to the right. I say congested environments, because say you have a Mistle Thrush and a Blackbird singing near to one another, and you point a mono shotgun at the Mistle Thrush, then the song of the Blackbird will sound like it is behind rather than to the left or right of the Mistle Thrush. Depending on how close the birds are (and how much sound is rejected by a directional mic), the Blackbird will sound further back. In the worst scenario, the Blackbird and Mistle Thrush will sound on top of one another - the Blackbird 'photo-bombs' your Mistle Thrush recording. With stereo you can obviously still hear the Blackbird, but it sounds to one side, and therefore more natural and acceptable.

I think the stereo pair you are looking at would probably work well for soundscapes, but I would personally not recommend them if you are looking to record 'portrait recordings' of single species. I would then use a much more directional mic and record in mono which is effective and simpler to do.

 

[FlackoWeasel]

I am not really sure that I see the problem. The three recordings seem OK to me, although the levels are not that loud.

Interestingly in the 2023 recording the volume in the left and right channels are not the same, although the signals look similar - which mic were you using?

The 2023 recording level is not that loud and peaks (in the left channel) at -9.15dB. The 2024 recording level is louder peaking at -6.44dB, the sonogram seems to show more low frequency noise, which I think is environmental. The Blackbird recording peaks at -8.52 and shows a lot more low frequency noise, which I again suspect is environmental, rather than equipment noise - this could be something as simple as a bit more wind, or distant traffic etc.

So all recordings have a relatively low signal to noise ratio, which means when you turn up the volume to listen to the recording, you are also 'turning up' the level of the unwanted noise. To increase signal to noise the best option is to locate the microphones closer to the bird. If you adjust the level on the recorder to increase the level of the recording (which is better than increasing the playback level), then you are also still increasing the volume of unwanted background noise.

"

"Interestingly in the 2023 recording the volume in the left and right channels are not the same, although the signals look similar - which mic were you using?"


I used Tascam Dr-05x, no mic. Just Tascam on the ground toward a bird. I guess the bird was moving around in places so sometimes it happens that one side is louder than 2nd side. Has happened before too when bird recided to move a bit.

Whaat, my audio peaks? But when I gain a bit the sound (otherwise the recording is super quiet) I never go over the 0db thing in Audacity, I always stay below. If I see it is red, I reduce the gain until it isn't in red, but orange and stuff. Had no idea.
Weird is when I listen through the headphones the audio is loud like IRL is. But when i import to Audacity, the audio is much quieter and I always have to amplify it to make it louder. No idea why on PC it plays differently than when I record it live and hear it through the headphones.
As before I amplify the whole recording, I first use the gain function to see how loud I want the audio to be before I amplify it, so I always check on the green bar moving. Will know now on

 

[FlackoWeasel]

So this uses the Primo EM272 microphone elements that at very sensitive. This means you will get a much louder recording (assuming the same recording level). Sensitive mics are better at picking up quieter (and more distant sounds), but the drawback is that they will also pick up all environmental sounds, and as the mic elements are omni-directional (all directions), you will pick up all sounds around you (including unwanted environmental sounds).

The question is why do you want stereo? As Mono says, most people recording bird sounds focus on a single bird. A bird is a single sound source, so mono works very well and sounds good. If you get a reasonable shotgun (or parabola) then you have a directional mic, and this will assist with cutting out unwanted environmental noise.

Stereo works best for soundscapes or 'congested' environments. If you want to capture a dawn chorus, then stereo captures the fact that the Robin was on the left and the Blackbird to the right. I say congested environments, because say you have a Mistle Thrush and a Blackbird singing near to one another, and you point a mono shotgun at the Mistle Thrush, then the song of the Blackbird will sound like it is behind rather than to the left or right of the Mistle Thrush. Depending on how close the birds are (and how much sound is rejected by a directional mic), the Blackbird will sound further back. In the worst scenario, the Blackbird and Mistle Thrush will sound on top of one another - the Blackbird 'photo-bombs' your Mistle Thrush recording. With stereo you can obviously still hear the Blackbird, but it sounds to one side, and therefore more natural and acceptable.

I think the stereo pair you are looking at would probably work well for soundscapes, but I would personally not recommend them if you are looking to record 'portrait recordings' of single species. I would then use a much more directional mic and record in mono which is effective and simpler to do.

"The question is why do you want stereo?" I usually want to record it as is like I as a human hear the bird, with two ears. I never knew you had to put stuff in mono when recording birds. I thought if I put stuff in mono, the quality becomes horrible asap because it is "mono" (like the old 1960 cartoons sound, like this Wacky Racers intro:

). So I probably have misunderstood the meaning on mono 😅.

When I looked this guy video, when he showed the mono effect, it was exactly what my Rode videomic did and I thought "mono" is the one ruining audio. Stereo sounded in the video beautiful, and as soon as mono hits, BAM audio is horrible:

(When 5:58 part starts, the audio becomes JPG as soon as it goes mono)
That is why I was terrified to touch it. Apologises for misunderstanding things.... Now I know now on haha to use mono.

I do dawn choruses too time to time, depends when I wake up early . I mainly focus on 4 bird species (Blyth's reed warbler, Thrush Nightingale, marsh Warbler and Common Blackbird) And do dawn/dusk or night choruses.

But if I use one Lavalier mic toward a single singing bird, that works too if I put settings mono?

 

[Jon.Bryant]

The question is why do you want stereo?" I usually want to record it as is like I as a human hear the bird, with two ears

This is not what it is like. You may have two ears, but if there is only one sound source, and it doesn't move (say a singing Blackbird), then if you are facing the source, both ears hear the same thing. In this case there would be no difference between a stereo and dual mono recording.

However, for a film or animation (like wacky races), there is movement - a character may be on the right or left of the screen - or travel from one side of the screen to the other. In this case stereo is better as the sound can then follow the image.

Of course, if you want to create a recording of say a calling Chiffchaff, working along a hedge, then it may be good to be in stereo - as the bird will then appear to approach from one side and work it's way to the other - in mono it would sound like it was always in front of you, but getting closer then moving further away. If the bird doesn't move (and you are not trying to capture other noises to the left and right in the background), then as long as the bird is in front of the mic, it is essentially a mono sound, no matter how you record it.

Probably over complicating things, but for broadcast recordings, I think most things will be recorded in mono - these mono recordings are then adjusted through a mixer to create a stereo effect. So let's say a rugby match - there will be a load of mono shotguns around the perimeter of the pitch, a mono lavalier mic on the ref etc. and the job of the sound engineer will be to fade in and out these recordings to match the picture. So fade in the ref's mono mic, when they go to a try decision, fade in the crowd noise when a try is scored etc, fade our the crowd noise when the action is more important (or when the crowd are blaspheming at a ref decision!). I suspect that for something as static as say a news reader, the whole thing is captured on a mono lavalier mic, and the broadcast is in effect mono. Sometimes news reader sound quality will jump markedly, to poorer sound quality - I suspect that this is when the little lavalier mic that the news reader wears fails, and the they have to switch to a shotgun mic on a boom pole just out of image - as I read a long time ago, the cheapest lavalier placed at the correct distance (and close to the source) will always sound better than even a very expensive shotgun placed further way!

 

[FlackoWeasel]

Thank you so much explaining this! I am aware the BRW does sometimes fly around and stuff, but it always comes back to the same bush area. I usually leave the recorders on the ground in 1 place for hours. Usually 1h or 1h 50m, depends how much I want of that specific bird. Most of the time I can get 50cm away from a bird or a metre, as they are very accessible at night. Sometimes some are further away sadly and have to find unique ways getting the further ones :'), be it taping stuff at trees and so on.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

But if I use one Lavalier mic toward a single singing bird, that works too if I put settings mono?

Yes and no.

Some people use a single lavalier to create high quality recordings of a single bird. If you have time and you know the favorite song perch of a Blyth's Reed Warbler, then you could place the tiny lavalier mic in that branch, within a meter or two of the bird. You would need to lay out a long length of cable, so you could sit at distance and control the recording levels, otherwise they may be too high for the recorder and then it would be distorted (assuming you don't have a 32bit float recorder). This creates a great recording because the signal to noise ratio is then very good. The only downside is that some people think this doesn't really sound like what you would hear - you don't normally hear a Blyth's Reed Warbler singing from a branch a meter away! Getting very complicated, but high pitched sound decays quicker than low pitched, so for a bird such as Thrush Nighingale that sings over a big frequency range, the balance of high frequency to low frequency sound depends on the distance from the bird - a very close recording may therefore sound too tinny, as normally you would hear reduced higher frequencies when listening from a distance.

The problem with a lavalier is that it is omni directional. It records everything around it. This means that if you set the mic 15m from the bird and crank up the recording level to compensate, you will be capturing everything in the area - a Blue Tit in a bush 15m behind you will sound like it is say alongside the Blyth's Reed Warbler 15m in front of you. You will also capture all wind noise (including rustly leaves), your grumbly stomach, distance aircraft noise etc.. With a directional mic, many of these unwanted sounds will be reduced.

The reason that up close works and far away doesn't with an omni mic is to do with signal to noise ratio. Sound intensity is inversely proportional to distance square. So if you record a Blyth's Reed Warbler 1m away, the sound intensity is 100 times greater than if you record in at 10m away. This means if you also capture unwanted traffic noise, the ratio in the close recording will be 100x better (or the unwanted noise 100x less). These figures are a bit of an exageration, as the mic may distort if the mic was only 1m away, but hopefully you get the picture.

I would therefore use a mono lavalier for up close work and you could use a lavalier stereo pair for soundscapes.

 

[FlackoWeasel]

Yes and no.

Some people use a single lavalier to create high quality recordings of a single bird. If you have time and you know the favorite song perch of a Blyth's Reed Warbler, then you could place the tiny lavalier mic in that branch, within a meter or two of the bird. You would need to lay out a long length of cable, so you could sit at distance and control the recording levels, otherwise they may be too high for the recorder and then it would be distorted (assuming you don't have a 32bit float recorder). This creates a great recording because the signal to noise ratio is then very good. The only downside is that some people think this doesn't really sound like what you would hear - you don't normally hear a Blyth's Reed Warbler singing from a branch a meter away! Getting very complicated, but high pitched sound decays quicker than low pitched, so for a bird such as Thrush Nighingale that sings over a big frequency range, the balance of high frequency to low frequency sound depends on the distance from the bird - a very close recording may therefore sound too tinny, as normally you would hear reduced higher frequencies when listening from a distance.

The problem with a lavalier is that it is omni directional. It records everything around it. This means that if you set the mic 15m from the bird and crank up the recording level to compensate, you will be capturing everything in the area - a Blue Tit in a bush 15m behind you will sound like it is say alongside the Blyth's Reed Warbler 15m in front of you. You will also capture all wind noise (including rustly leaves), your grumbly stomach, distance aircraft noise etc.. With a directional mic, many of these unwanted sounds will be reduced.

The reason that up close works and far away doesn't with an omni mic is to do with signal to noise ratio. Sound intensity is inversely proportional to distance square. So if you record a Blyth's Reed Warbler 1m away, the sound intensity is 100 times greater than if you record in at 10m away. This means if you also capture unwanted traffic noise, the ratio in the close recording will be 100x better (or the unwanted noise 100x less). These figures are a bit of an exageration, as the mic may distort if the mic was only 1m away, but hopefully you get the picture.

I would therefore use a mono lavalier for up close work and you could use a lavalier stereo pair for soundscapes.

Thank you <3. Yeah I don't have a 32 float, I have only 3 tascam dr-05x-es. As I do it as a hobby and my pension doesnt allow to get expensier stuff, I try my best to do my hobby . And yeah, most Blyth's Reed warblers I record are metre away from me, as I always try to get as close as i can. I have never had them fly away when I approach carefully, the song is SUPER IMPORTANT to me, so I do EVERYTHING to get their songs and being ultra careful! I even built lego cases for Tascams to have them on the ground still and can move them toward bird . Same with thrush nightingales, I once tried to find it in a bush and I couldn't see the bird, but he was so loud! He did not fly away even if I had head in a push trying to find him with a phone light.

With Thrush Nightingales, as they are soo loud, I have no problem placing the recorder around metre or further.

Rütmik one I was i guess 1-2 meter away from TNG. I left the Tascam on the ground and left to find new TNG while it recorded.

The whole time the bird sang didn't move at all and was always at the same place.

Here I tried to sneak super close to a TNG and placed the recorder closer to him

Somehow the "zigizigi" sound came so satisfying and I love Ziggy for that reason. I always hear first through headphones before I drop it on the ground.

As Most are singing at night, never hear them at day here. Usually in bushes, a bush in a ditch, a lilac bush and so on. I always try to sneak very close to them, place recorder down and find 2nd bird, place 2nd recorder down, find 3rd bird, place recorder down and going around like this until 3am. When first records over 1h, pick it up, find 4th bird, record 4th bird, pick up 2nd recorder, find 5th and so on. My rule is always 1h and more to get maximum song pattern of each specific BRW to hear cool rhythms! As I want to record their amazing singing talent, so I want to get as many different inviduals as I possibly can during their 3 week singing season to hear how each different TNG, BRW and MW (Marsh warbler) sing. If no new BRWs sing, I record the ones I already got as every night can be different and a specific bird wont sing maybe tomorrow night, so each night is crucial. And it means doing it every single night since thrush nightingales start beginning of may till last BRW sing mid June. It's an amazing experience.

I love to experiment <3. So next month I try to get 1 lavalier and test stuff out.