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What defines what an Alpha binoculars is? (1 Viewer)

ceasar

Well-known member
"Alpha," when used in discussing binoculars, is an amorphous term currently in use to rate them by quality. In forum discussion it means "those of the highest quality." But words are always changing and Samuel Johnson said that "definitions are tricks for pedants."

Bob

"..the history of ideas (indeed of all human thought) is inseparable from the history of words." John Lukacs, DEMOCRACY AND POPULISM Fear and Hatred p.117 Yale University Press (2005)
 
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GeeJayW

Well-known member
Top Gun reference... Alphas are the best of the best... :)

The snag is, there'll never be universal agreement on what the best is. Is it best optical resolution or colour balance or contrast or absence of distortion, image brightness, lack of rolling ball, no chromatic aberation, construction, feel, balance, weight, eye relief, exit pupil, look, colour, style, brand, cost, weather proofing, kudos.... The list is nearly endless.

Different people value and perceive different things, even when it comes down to binoculars. There can be all sorts of objective measurements and comparisons, but in the end it comes down to personal choice and how much money you want to lay out, or not.

I guess, the term alpha implies 'at the pinnacle'. Unfortunately the pinnacle of 'what' is a variable based on one's viewpoint.

Another of my hobbies is playing guitar. There are endless debates and discussion about what constitutes the best guitar. Ten years ago I bought a Gibson Les Paul Standard. To me it's still the best guitar I've played and I've played many others in that time. But it's 'only' a production standard and not a Custom Shop reissue. So there are lots of people that have R7 this or R9 that (Custom Shop models) that look down their noses at this 'OK' guitar. Then there are folk that own original 1950's Les Pauls that look down their noses at the Custom Shop guitars. Meanwhile there are lots and lots of guitar players that simply would love to have any sort of 'real' Gibson. It's a snobs paradise.

So, lots of snobbery and inverted snobbery around. Lots of oportunity to make personal choices, based on what floats your particular boat. I guess terms like 'alpha' binoculars could be used in two ways:
1. Objectively; as a means to describe or categorise the most expensive and (perhaps) best quality, best performing binoculars, without having to be specific about a brand or model;
2. Subjectively; as a means to build up or knock down egos and status, based mainly on the high price tag that comes with high quality and performance.

..... gets down from soapbox..... :)
 

FrankD

Well-known member
Though I respect everyone else's opinion on the subject my opinion of the issue is that it all boils down to image quality...period. You can pick and choose what combination of optical performance characteristics you prefer but, in the end, the binocular has to display strong performance levels in all areas with exceptional performance in at least one area.
 

oleaf

Well-known member
That list is almost complete, just drop the Meopta, and add Nikon.
There are 4 alpha brands, and those are the 4. Nothing more,
and nothing less.

Jerry

Well I guess I mention these companies together because they make their own stuff in their own factories.

And since Meopta makes stuff for a couple of these listed companies... wouldn't they qualify? I think so. Meopta's product can be considered alpha performance.

If it comes down to optics... Meopta's in that league.
 

NDhunter

Experienced observer
United States
Well I guess I mention these companies together because they make their own stuff in their own factories.

And since Meopta makes stuff for a couple of these listed companies... wouldn't they qualify? I think so. Meopta's product can be considered alpha performance.

If it comes down to optics... Meopta's in that league.

I have not tried Meopta optics, and they may be very good. But from any
reviews I have seen they are solidly in the mid-range, and are not in the
Alpha class, but the next step down.
Some refer to the Alpha and the Beta. The 4 majors mentioned have the
alpha class and they are well known.
Then comes the beta class, and Zeiss has the Conquest and Leica
has the Trinovid, Swaro. the new CL, Nikon the Premier. They are all Beta
optics, similar to what Meopta has in their high-end.

Spend some time at the AllBinos website, and their rankings, they rate things quite well in my opinion, and you may learn a thing or 2.

Jerry
 

jan van daalen

Well-known member
In my opinion the Alpha title is earned by that company that invests most in research and development of the product. In other words "making the best better". This happens to be the slogan of Swarovski's founder. IMHO there can only be one Alpha. Second, third etc. doesn't count. Yoe have to earn beeing an Alpha. Last year we had a meeting at Zeiss in Jena and also present were all the bobo's (Dutch for important guy's) of the so called three alpha's. Both Zeiss and Leica stated that it was not fair to see Swarovski as the top dog because of the fact that Swarovski could only be the top dog since their budget for R&D was bigger than the one for Zeiss and Leica together.
Zeiss optics contribute less then 5% to the Zeiss concern. Medical Division 50%. So that's their top dog. Leica survives because of the camera division. Sport Optics doesn't get the funds to R&D to be top dog.
Also in sales there in only one Alpha. And sales is the proof of quality.
Sorry for the other two, but Swarovski rules the world.

Jan
 

jan van daalen

Well-known member
Bob,

Let us put the three A fabrics together on 100% because they are the serious brands.
Zeiss has made the last 5 years 10%. Leica 20% and Swarovski 75% of the sales.
There are Zeissianen, Leicofielen and Swabofskis. Those people will only buy one of those products. They are hunters and/or birders and addicted to the brand.

80% of my customer is an "going on safari in Africa and I need a binocular" and have not been infected by the virus mentioned above.
They look trough the different models and decide.
We know, to the tiniest detail, the differences between those models and can answer almost every question. It turns out that Swarovski is the winner by far.
That does not mean that the other two make bad bino's. Absolutely not. But there can only be one Alpha and maybe next year it will be Leica or Zeiss. I will be the last to say otherwise, but in all integrity...... at this moment Swarovski is shin uchi.

Just google that up!

Hope that answers your question.

Jan
 

Stanbo

Well-known member
In my opinion the Alpha title is earned by that company that invests most in research and development of the product. In other words "making the best better". This happens to be the slogan of Swarovski's founder. IMHO there can only be one Alpha. Second, third etc. doesn't count. Yoe have to earn beeing an Alpha. Last year we had a meeting at Zeiss in Jena and also present were all the bobo's (Dutch for important guy's) of the so called three alpha's. Both Zeiss and Leica stated that it was not fair to see Swarovski as the top dog because of the fact that Swarovski could only be the top dog since their budget for R&D was bigger than the one for Zeiss and Leica together.
Zeiss optics contribute less then 5% to the Zeiss concern. Medical Division 50%. So that's their top dog. Leica survives because of the camera division. Sport Optics doesn't get the funds to R&D to be top dog.
Also in sales there in only one Alpha. And sales is the proof of quality.
Sorry for the other two, but Swarovski rules the world.

Jan

What a load of dogs whatsits. I'm too flabbergasted to say any more.

Stan
 

brocknroller

A professed porromaniac
United States
If "sales is the proof of quality," then the Nikon Monarchs, the best selling bins in the world, must be an alpha! ;)

Neither does the fact that a company spends more $ on developing a bin necessary mean, ipso facto, that bin is "the best".

GM spends almost as much money in R&D as Toyota, but GM cars have never been as reliable as Toyota's or had as high a resale value. Honda spends less money than either company, but ranks #1 in reliability almost every year, and they also have higher resale value.

Why can't GM build a reliable car as Toyota or Honda? Probably due to its "corporate culture," I don't know, that's one for industry experts to analyze, but it's not for lack of R&D $s, Here are the numbers:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/11/automotive-rd-means-not-so-very-much%E2%80%8F/

This was from 2008, but even today after the bailout and restructuring, a Chevy Cruze, as nicely styled as they are and as good on gas as they are, is still not as reliable as a Honda Civic.

So one could look at it the other way around. Leica and Zeiss both make high quality premium bins, but they spend way less money on R&D than Swaro. Maybe the Austrians are not as efficient as the Germans?

Maybe it's not the R&D that makes Swaros sell better, maybe it's marketing. I don't know if Zeiss and Leica take customers on birding tours to exotic locals to introduce their bins, do they? Perhaps Swaro's marketing budget is more important to its brand's sales than its R&D budget.

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jan van daalen

Well-known member
Brock,

So many people and so many different opinions. That makes this so interesting!!

I have never heard of the fact that Swarovski took her customers (for free?) on birding tours to exotic locations to introduce their bins. Who are those customers? Out of your comment I read that by customers you mean the end consumer. If so, where can we list in Brock? Let us in and don't keep it for yourself. Or is it that group of people the writing media?
Please explain.

Jan
 

pompadour

Well-known member
Brock, after my fiery denunciation of excess elsewhere, here, I believe, one can let go, and I might even outdo you (well... no, possibly not even try!) Seems that reliability as a factor to determine "alpha" and non-a. won't explain it much better than popularity or extent of R&D. E.g. in my experience a distinctly non-"alpha"-level Nikon was as solidly reliable as I'd reckon any "aplha" to be. The comparison with cars seems likewise. Those who discern "alpha" in cars are likely to rate Ferrari or Bentley "alpha" and Toyota not so, but not because the former are more reliable; in fact, a Toyota is, as you note, v. reliable; and an F. or B. may be less so without a lot of attention. As I said or implied elsewhere, if "alpha" is anything other than optical quality there'll be no consensus.
 

jan van daalen

Well-known member
Brock,

I don't kwow how things work at the automotive industry. I think, I do know a little bit how it works at the optical industry, so let me stick to that area.
You state to look at it the other way around. According to your theory Zeiss and leica don't have to spend so much money to R&D as Swarovski does because they are more efficient.

But...... This came from Zeiss and leica. Not from Swarovski. Zeiss and Leica stated that the reason why Swarovski makes superior optics comes from the fact that their R&D budget is bigger than the borh of Zeiss and Leica.

Further you state that the Nikon Monarch is the best selling bino in the world.
It seems to me (I am only very short on this forum but since 1993 in the optical sales) that you by some reason are a Nikon fan. Could it be that that troubles your vision just a tiny little bit??????? Maybe some selfreflection Brock????

We sell al lot of brands and also Nikon. Given the extreem poorly warranty status of Nikon down here it is sold extremely bad. Nikon number one in sales?
Considering the known sales figures it would be fair to say that Bushnell in volume is the number 1 in the world. In that category.

Are we going to the alpha class than Swarovski proves that only quality boosts sales.
Please don't try to turn my words around, Brock.
 

GeeJayW

Well-known member
There won't be a consensus as to what constitutes an alpha. The simplest metric is retail price. Swarovski EL SV, Leica UV, Zeiss Victory, seem to be about the most expensive. They are all excellent optically. Nikon EDG II seem to be right up there both in optical performance and price. However, they are a little cheaper, so not quite at the top and therefore not alpha?

Using cars as an analogy is probably a good one. It's possible hold a view that Ferrari and Mercedes produce alpha cars. Ridiculous performance with a price to match. Cars that are out of reach, but secretly yearned for by Joe Average. Carmakers that have been round long enough to carve out a heritage. Yes there are new kids on the block Lamborghini (started off making tractors, now owned by Audi), McLaren. There's also the old guard that aren't quite alphas,ie Porsche. Not quite expensive enough, not quite fast enough and stuck with a design from the 60s with all the handling of a wheelbarrow with bag of cement in it.

As for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, etc.. They will never make an alpha. Though in fairness Ford made one once, the GT40.

Of course I'm exaggerating to make the point and being a little sarcastic, which is a bit dangerous on a forum. So I do apologise for that. To finish on topic:

We recently bought Swarovski (old news I know, bear with me). Part of the reason for doing so was the knowledge that we would probably never feel the need to upgrade to anything else, simply because the bins we have are among the very best there is. Being very impressed by the Zeiss Conquest, it was very tempting to save about 50-60% and go with some of those. But they are just not quite as good. What could we have gone with instead of Swarovski? Not much in my opinion, Leica UV, Zeiss Victory/HT or maybe.... Nikon EDG II. Maybe Nikon have joined the fold. They have been making great optics for decades, so they have the heritage. To me the EDG II seem to have the optical performs, though it was only a brief encounter. Finally they have that all important weighty price tag, though maybe not quite weighty enough...

Consensus? Not gonna happen IMHO.
 

hinnark

Well-known member
Brock,

I don't kwow how things work at the automotive industry. I think, I do know a little bit how it works at the optical industry, so let me stick to that area.
You state to look at it the other way around. According to your theory Zeiss and leica don't have to spend so much money to R&D as Swarovski does because they are more efficient.

But...... This came from Zeiss and leica. Not from Swarovski. Zeiss and Leica stated that the reason why Swarovski makes superior optics comes from the fact that their R&D budget is bigger than the borh of Zeiss and Leica.

Further you state that the Nikon Monarch is the best selling bino in the world.
It seems to me (I am only very short on this forum but since 1993 in the optical sales) that you by some reason are a Nikon fan. Could it be that that troubles your vision just a tiny little bit??????? Maybe some selfreflection Brock????

We sell al lot of brands and also Nikon. Given the extreem poorly warranty status of Nikon down here it is sold extremely bad. Nikon number one in sales?
Considering the known sales figures it would be fair to say that Bushnell in volume is the number 1 in the world. In that category.

Are we going to the alpha class than Swarovski proves that only quality boosts sales.
Please don't try to turn my words around, Brock.

Jan,

I think the business policy of Nikon Sports Optics for North America is completely different from that in Europe. It's quite obvious that outside of Japan, they concentrate mainly on the US market, perhaps because the competition at the home markets of the European optical industry is too harsh for them. I could also imagine that the sales of sport optics is evanescent compared with the sales of their photo department. Business people tend to concentrate on key issues, or in other words it's the cash cow that counts. That's why we have so much 8x42 and 10x42 bins, BTW.

As for the R&D costs I wonder what that could be at binoculars. Improving the coatings or eyepiece design once more - pretty old stuff isn't it? Where are these really new innovations in optronics that need a big R&D budget? What about image stabilistaion, built in cameras and so on? Other than with rangefinders, I can't see very much innovation with the European makers. The exception (e.g. Zeiss Photoscope) proves the rule.

Steve
 

brocknroller

A professed porromaniac
United States
Brock,

I don't kwow how things work at the automotive industry. I think, I do know a little bit how it works at the optical industry, so let me stick to that area.
You state to look at it the other way around. According to your theory Zeiss and leica don't have to spend so much money to R&D as Swarovski does because they are more efficient.

But...... This came from Zeiss and leica. Not from Swarovski. Zeiss and Leica stated that the reason why Swarovski makes superior optics comes from the fact that their R&D budget is bigger than the borh of Zeiss and Leica.

Further you state that the Nikon Monarch is the best selling bino in the world.
It seems to me (I am only very short on this forum but since 1993 in the optical sales) that you by some reason are a Nikon fan. Could it be that that troubles your vision just a tiny little bit??????? Maybe some selfreflection Brock????

We sell al lot of brands and also Nikon. Given the extreem poorly warranty status of Nikon down here it is sold extremely bad. Nikon number one in sales?
Considering the known sales figures it would be fair to say that Bushnell in volume is the number 1 in the world. In that category.

Are we going to the alpha class than Swarovski proves that only quality boosts sales.
Please don't try to turn my words around, Brock.

Jan,

I'm not trying to turn your words around, but I am trying to turn the "tables" around by using hyperbole to get you to see that perhaps you are looking through Swaros with rose-colored glasses, because you make more money on them than other "alphas" (or I guess you would call them "betas").

Swaros have always had a wide appeal among European hunters, and US hunters too, and up until the EL, that was their base. It's no co-incidence that Zeiss first marketed its new HT to hunters. With the HT's, Zeiss hopes to capture a larger slice of that segment that Swaro dominates, but without resorting to bigger and heavier bins such as the Night Owl, which some hunters still use.

If you peruse hunting optics forums such as those on Optics Talk and 24hrcampfire, or read hunting magazines, you will see that although some hunters buy Leicas and Zeiss bins, they overwhelming prefer Swaro on the top end.

Is that because Swaro bins are the superior, the only true, legitimate "alpha" as you claim? I think not. They sell more to hunters because they were the first to make bins that catered exclusively to that market with their yellow bias optics to help cut through the din of European winters, their green colored armoring, and because they have managed to hold their #1 position in that upscale hunting market due excellent customer service and repairs.

The first to dominate any market always has the advantage as long as they don't rest on their laurels but keep catering to those customers, which Swaro has with the upscale hunting market. Leica could take a lesson from Swaro when it comes to customer service and repairs, but they don't seem to be as interested in marketing to hunters as they do to birders and yachtsmen. Zeiss seems to do better than Leica in regard to customer service and repairs, but their reputation is still not as good as Swaro's. If there is any place that Sawro is superior to other two top players, it's in customer service and warranty.

So I think you're right (or partially correct) about Swaro's position in the top tier market, but for different reasons. It's my contention that neither sales nor R&D nor their products make Swaro the best "alpha", but rather their marketing and service.

Zeiss and Leica produce equally high quality products to Sawro's, but if they want to broaden their sales, particularly to hunters, they don't need to increase their R&D, they need to up their marketing and service game to match that of Swaro.

It still would be tough, because Swaro already dominates that segment, but Zeiss and Leica can make inroads into the upscale hunting market if they increase the quality of their marketing and service. Zeiss seems interested in doing that, I'm not so sure about Leica.

So Swaro started out with that large hunting market share, and now it's become successful in penetrating the birding market by making their AR coatings more "color neutral," adding ED glass, closer focus, and a faster focuser. These are all features that Zeiss and Leica bins already had, but they took it a step further and added field flatteners, which competes directly, with, dare I say it, Nikon. ;)

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