What defines what an Alpha binoculars is? (1 Viewer)

[cycleguy]

Jan,

As for the R&D costs I wonder what that could be at binoculars. Improving the coatings or eyepiece design once more - pretty old stuff isn't it? Where are these really new innovations in optronics that need a big R&D budget? What about image stabilistaion, built in cameras and so on? Other than with rangefinders, I can't see very much innovation with the European makers. The exception (e.g. Zeiss Photoscope) proves the rule.

Steve

I've kinda' felt the integration of technology into binoculars has been lacking as well. Now that the companies have sold us hunters a rangefinder and a binocular, the time has come to integrate the two. What hunter wouldn't want to carry one piece of equipment vs two???

I've always wished I could snap a pic, a high quality pic and not the 680 res stuff that's currently offered by Bushnell, of things I see thru my binocs. Video capability would be appreciated too.

I've wondered how much stabilization can be had while still maintaining a compact unit... a steadyness gain of 1x, 2x, 3x,...

Since we are on it... why not GPS ability...

Then start pushing it with internet access, computer, and phone all right there looking thru your glass which is nothing more than glasses/sunglasses on your face operated by voice or mental wave lengths.

Seems like there is only so much that can be done with a piece of glass.

CG

 

[FrankD]

Jan,

I don't want to speak for Brock but I can certainly verify that various companies within the different outdoor industries certainly do take outdoor writers and big name industry personalities out on "excursions" to introduce their products. Can I say that Swaro specifically does this? No. But it would genuinely surprise me if the didn't.

I have to say that I do agree with Brock. Swaro has earned it's position within the market. However I think a huge reason for that is marketing and advertisement. This reminds me of my experiences within the archery industry prior to getting so involved in optics. One particular manufacturer had an advertising budget that dwarfed any of its competitors despite the fact that other companies had been around longer and actually sold more of that particular product. This particular company hired the major industry personalities to use their product. These individuals are the same ones you would see on all the outdoor shows so the awareness of the product skyrocketed.

They also bought huge 6 page ads in the middle of every magazine not only illustrating the features of the product but also all of the outdoor personality endorsements.

As for as I know they are still one of the top dogs in that industry not only because they make an Alpha product but also because they have an Alpha marketing strategy.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Brock and others,
Inorder to find out how the quality development of binoculars has evolved the past 60 years I did research on existing models of many (high quality) companies and compared the results. From the data it was obvious that Swarovski started to beat other companies first wit the introduction of the AT telescopes, but certainly with the EL models and later. That had nothing to do with marketing, sales figures, customer markets etc. but purely with performance levels. The conclusion was really simple: Swarovski has succeeded to become quality leader and my conclusions were ackowledged also by colleague producers like for example Leica. That does not mean other top brands are bad, but on the basis of the research criteria used, Swarovski has grown to be quality leader of the moment.
Gijs

 

[ClarkWGriswold]

You forgot to add you should be able to play Angry Birds:t: on it

I've kinda' felt the integration of technology into binoculars has been lacking as well. Now that the companies have sold us hunters a rangefinder and a binocular, the time has come to integrate the two. What hunter wouldn't want to carry one piece of equipment vs two???

I've always wished I could snap a pic, a high quality pic and not the 680 res stuff that's currently offered by Bushnell, of things I see thru my binocs. Video capability would be appreciated too.

I've wondered how much stabilization can be had while still maintaining a compact unit... a steadyness gain of 1x, 2x, 3x,...

Since we are on it... why not GPS ability...

Then start pushing it with internet access, computer, and phone all right there looking thru your glass which is nothing more than glasses/sunglasses on your face operated by voice or mental wave lengths.

Seems like there is only so much that can be done with a piece of glass.

CG

 

[dantheman]

Alpha binoculars?

Isn't that what some people call a monocular?

 

[brocknroller]

Brock, after my fiery denunciation of excess elsewhere, here, I believe, one can let go, and I might even outdo you (well... no, possibly not even try!) Seems that reliability as a factor to determine "alpha" and non-a. won't explain it much better than popularity or extent of R&D. E.g. in my experience a distinctly non-"alpha"-level Nikon was as solidly reliable as I'd reckon any "aplha" to be. The comparison with cars seems likewise. Those who discern "alpha" in cars are likely to rate Ferrari or Bentley "alpha" and Toyota not so, but not because the former are more reliable; in fact, a Toyota is, as you note, v. reliable; and an F. or B. may be less so without a lot of attention. As I said or implied elsewhere, if "alpha" is anything other than optical quality there'll be no consensus.

Pomp,

I was expecting someone to say exactly that and had planned to build in a retort in anticipation, but it was a nice day and I had to get outside and do some birding in the woods before deer season starts. It was enjoying the birds, the woods, and the solitude until I heard multiple shots fired and I scurried back to the main road, taking off my brown leather jacket to expose my red hoodie underneath. It's bear and small game season here now and while nobody would mistake me for small game, my brown leather jacket might look like a brown bear to some Mr. Magoo hunter. |8.|

A guy with his dog whom I met near the gate of the trail asked me if I was bird watching and offered to lend me an orange vest, but it was getting dark on the trail, which was flanked by a high hill on each side, so I thanked him and confined my birding to the main gravel road, which looks across Spring Creek. I talked to some fisherman, who were playing "catch & release" because a chemical plant contaminated the stream with PCBs back in the late 1970s. One fisherman said to the other, "I think I caught that same Bullhead (catfish) three times!".

Okay, my answer. I don't consider alpha bins to be akin to a Ferrari or a Bentley (I've actually ridden in a Bentley, the VP of the firm I used to work for had one), but rather to a Lexus. A luxury item but still within the reach of mere mortal men with deep pockets. As you can see from this link, Lexus was rated #1 in dependability by J.D. Powers again this year, rated higher even than your everyman Toyota!

http://wot.motortrend.com/lexus-back-on-top-of-2012-j-d-power-dependability-study-chrysler-last-170219.html

Luxury and reliability need not be mutually exclusive, as Lexus proves.

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[brocknroller]

OK Brock,
We have different views on that subject, but OK.

What about my question on # 74?

Jan.

Re: Question about Swaro's trip, they took a group of birders and birding experts, including Pete Dunne, to try out their newly launched 10x and 12x50 SV ELs in Extremadura.

Hey, they didn't invite me either, so don't feel bad.

Here's a video from the trip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc9M_6oH_2M

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[ceasar]

I'd call that advertising, Brock. Targeted at a special group. Groupies.

How about that? I never really thought about the etymology and origin of that word before!

Bob

PS: I thought I would expand on that a bit because, like yourself, I often don't know when to quit; but it does look like a great idea to take a bunch of famous birders and bird experts on a junket if they agree to use your binoculars.:t:

If these experts are honest in their ravings, and likely they are here; and as they also would be if they were using the top of the line Leica, Zeiss, and Nikon binoculars, then their fans, admirers and students would feel much more confident in purchasing these very expensive instruments.

 

[pompadour]

GJW, re consensus on what is "alpha". (a) I meant, consensus with regard to criteria, not makes or models. Optical quality, I think, is a necessary and sufficient criterion. (b) By consensus meant not necess. 100% but very close. E.g. we see, above, the idea of R&D as the criterion, but it is very unusual. I note Frank added build quality, but I think at present that may be taken for granted, considering the care in production needed to achieve the best optical quality. The above can be expanded but it'll make a long story longer.

CG, I tried to push such new tech in Bf. but was up against "pure optics" types who somehow don't admire our vision.

Frank, I sometimes skim over text on a first scan, and did so with the many posts above since my last visit to Bf. I first thought - and others who do that possibly might similarly think - your last paragraph is about Swarovski! Separating out the first ref. to the archery ind. would have helped, I think. FWIW.

Clark, with the present-day instruments and their status it's Angry Bird Watchers! Let's sort that out first.

Brock, enjoyed your diary (though not some info. in it) - somehow reminded me of Thoreau! The Lexus example is v. apt. But the problem in comparison with cars, of course, is that there the top end consists of makes that are still more upmarket and sought on different criteria.

 

[Jumbo]

Alpha Optics are those which people argue over the most. :gn:

 

[jan van daalen]

Brock,

If your receipt for succes is wright ; take a product, a bag of money, a hugh marketing strategy in selling air and you have an alpha. The marketing strategy you are following doesn't lead Nikon to the nr. 1 status. Besides selling air it seems you need more.
So I stick to my side of what defines what an Alpha is.

And so from a You Tube film you base your statement that Swarovski is taking customers to exotic places. Wow!!!
And later on you put me in a position that I should't feel bad.

I rest my case. Selling air won't do the trick Brock.

Jan

 

[brocknroller]

Brock,

If your receipt for succes is wright ; take a product, a bag of money, a hugh marketing strategy in selling air and you have an alpha. The marketing strategy you are following doesn't lead Nikon to the nr. 1 status. Besides selling air it seems you need more.
So I stick to my side of what defines what an Alpha is.

And so from a You Tube film you base your statement that Swarovski is taking customers to exotic places. Wow!!!
And later on you put me in a position that I should't feel bad.

I rest my case. Selling air won't do the trick Brock.

Jan

Selling air would do the trick on Mars, though.

If you recall, I posited more than one reason for Swaro's current supremacy:

(1) they have the lion's share of the high end hunting optics market, and although birding is the fastest growing hobby in the US, worldwide, there are more hunters than birders, even as you mentioned, hunters are your biggest customers, I bet that's also true for proud papa (a local Swaro dealer and BF member)

(2) they were successful in revamping their products to penetrate the birding market segment in which their competitors held supremacy, and now have a solid footing, so that's more money in their coffers to reinvest in R&D and/or marketing.

(3) they have the "latest and greatest" products available right now in the top tier (that will change when the HTs finally hit the stores). I've noticed from reading BF for the past 9 years that optics fans get very exuberant about the "latest and greatest," and the deep pocketed buy them quickly, and the rest of us buy them second hand after they get tired of playing with them and move on to the next "latest and greatest" (which is different than hunters, who tend to hold onto their bins much longer, and hence, why they put high value on good customer service and warranties).

(4) Swaro has better customer service and repair service than their competitors, which I think is probably the most important factor in putting them over the top, particularly with hunters, although their customer service and warranty repairs have also been highly praised on BF.

I don't know Swaro's marketing budget, but it would stand to reason that if they put more money into their R&D than their competitors, they would want to get a high return on that investment with as much "air" (fanfare) as possible, and they do seem to spend more money launching their new products than Leica or Zeiss, as evidenced by the extravagant Extremadura trip (I bet AIG had a sales meeting there, too .

Zeiss had been making a lot of "noise" about the HT's at the various shows, but then they lost momentum with the delayed launch. Perhaps the "buzz" will start anew when the HTs hit the stores.

I'm easy to please. Zeiss doesn't have to fly me across the ocean to Extremadura. A bus ride to Hawk Mountain would be fine, just make sure Steve Ingraham is there, because I'd like to meet him in person.

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[hinnark]

(1) they have the lion's share of the high end hunting optics market,

Not over here. In Central and Northern Europe hunters prefer 8x56 binoculars. At this market segment Zeiss has been the leader for decades until this day. The 8x56 Victory is market leader and Leica have had sudden success with their 8x56 Geovid. Swaro has only a pretty old SLC on the start. I think the problem is do built an open bridge design with binoculars of this big lens size.

Steve

 

[jan van daalen]

Brock,
Extravagant trip??

Steve,
Won't happen! The tubes will be to thick at 56mm for comfortable open bridge design.

Jan

 

[hinnark]

Steve,
Won't happen! The tubes will be to thick at 56mm for comfortable open bridge design.

Jan

Right, so let's face at what they'll come up with. Must be somethings special. Open bridge is part of their success, I think. Another one is the design. Some people think design is everything. Now here is the secret everybody has overlooked so far. The design of EL binoculars is closer to the golden ratio than their competitors.

Steve

 

[jan van daalen]

Steve,
You are right again. The phenomonal balance is unique.

Acoording to the Law of Swarovski I would imagine we will meet the new SLC HD 8x56 soon because they dropped the retailprice by a few hundred euro's on the present model. T'ill now this was a sign for a follow up. The 42 SLC HD is allready in place. In fact it has the same specs as the SV except for the housing and the field flattener lenses.

Jan

 

[GeeJayW]

My better half has the 8x42 SLC HD and is over the moon with them.

 

[jan van daalen]

good choice and NO rolling ball.

Jan

 

[dantheman]

Alpha binoculars?

Isn't that what some people call a monocular?

That's 'alpha' as in 'half a', by the way ...


(It's if you have to explain ... or maybe I didn't. ... Sorry ... back under the bridge ... )

 

[brocknroller]

The Count and the Amount

Just noticed something of interest in regard to Jan's earlier statement about Swarovski bins being the alpha. I'm not sure if there is any relationship to how much attention one brand gets over another on BF ("the world's largest online birding community"), but if you check the thread counts of the Big Four forums, Swarovski actually has the least number of threads (600) despite all the buzz about the SV ELs and CLs, which pumped up the subforum's thread count.

Leica is just ahead of Swaro with 601 threads, Zeiss ahead of Leica with 632 threads, and by far, the Egyptian Cotton thread count brand is Nikon, with 894 threads! Now that's plush!

I assume that Nikon leads the Big Three, because it has more offerings at different price points than the alpha brands, but Nikon also has more threads than any other brand subforum. So it's not just ahead of the alphas, Nikon draws more interest than any other brand.

But I found it interesting that despite Swaro being way out ahead in sales, according to Jan, the interest level for Swaros on BF seems to be about equal with Leica and Zeiss.

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