What defines what an Alpha binoculars is? (1 Viewer)

[GeeJayW]

Could be that Swaro, Zeiss and Leica users are just happy with their lot. Comfortable that their bins are unsurpassed. Meanwhile Nikon folk need to bang on about how they are as good as the big three which in fact should be the big four to include Nikon....

(sorry, couldn't resist.... )...

 

[brocknroller]

Could be that Swaro, Zeiss and Leica users are just happy with their lot. Comfortable that their bins are unsurpassed. Meanwhile Nikon folk need to bang on about how they are as good as the big three which in fact should be the big four to include Nikon....

(sorry, couldn't resist.... )...

Or perhaps the Big Three are just too "hoity-toity" to make more affordable bins for the common man.

They aren't "unsurpassed" on allbinos where Arek rated both the 8x42 and the 10x42 EDG above their alpha competitors. At the same time, Nikon also makes the Monarch, the best selling bin in the world*.

Similarly, Nikon makes some of the best cameras in the world, has good quality mid-priced cameras, and also an extensive line of affordable "point and shoots"

OTOH, Leica makes the most expensive cameras in the world, the priciest of which, the LEICA APO-TELYT-R, costs 2,064,489 USD!

So which is harder to do and which best serves the common good? To make a narrow range of products for the deep pocketed or to make a wide range of quality products that customers can plug into at various price points?

If we were to use Jan's measuring stick of "greatest sales" as a measure of the alpha brand," Nikon would take the prize, because it sells more bins and cameras than the Big Three combined! Food for thought. :eat:

*except in Europe

<B>

 

[eddy the eagle]

Brock,I loves ya,but that would be like asking Rolls Royce to put their badge on a $5000 car. Eddy.

 

[brocknroller]

Brock,I loves ya,but that would be like asking Rolls Royce to put their badge on a $5000 car. Eddy.

Eddy the Eagle,

I was thinking more like Astro-Physics, world-renown for their top of the line APO refractors, putting their badge on $375 Chinese-made binoculars made by General Hi-T:

http://www.buytelescopes.com/Products/11153-Astro-Physics-105x70-premium-astronomical-binoculars.aspx

No, I meant doing what Nikon, Bushnell and Minox have done - trickling down some of the features from their top of the line bins into more affordable bins such as the Nikon Monarch 7, the Bushnell Ultra ED, and the Minox BL line (designed by Volkswagen - the "people's car").

However, I think mid-tier at around the $1,000 price point is probably as low as the Big Three are going to limbo. Going lower might "tarnish" their brand.

Btw, is that your wife with the Betty Davis eyes in your avatar?

Brock the Bagel

 

[jan van daalen]

Brock,

I am on slippery ice now because I am not a photo shop but INMO is the Leica you mentioned not a camera but only an objective combined with an head focus module of the R range (out of production since 2008) and followed up by the M system. The price was 18.000 euro ex VAT.

The measuring stick you mentioned was based on sales between the THREE alpha's.
Only on the EDG models Nikon can compare to those three but not in any other field.
A small example:

I sold an Swarovski SV 8x32 and a Nikon Action to a couple that went for a safari and both came back with defects. The SV was fallen on the groudnd and the owner cleasned the lenses with hit T-shirt ewith scratches as an result. The Nikon lost his adjustable eye-cups.
Te SV came back with new lenses on a coulance warranty base with no bill.
The Nikon came with a repair bill that was higher then the wholesale price of that bin. For an eye-cup repair!!!!!!!!
That's the difference between your and mine Alpha.

Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski produce top optics like Nikon does with the EDG, but in sales on those top optics range Swarovski beats the rest and also in their handling towards defects they beat the rest. So........

Jan

 

[stephen b]

.......
Only on the EDG models Nikon can compare to those three but not in any other field.
A small example:

I sold an Swarovski SV 8x32 and a Nikon Action to a couple that went for a safari and both came back with defects. The SV was fallen on the groudnd and the owner cleasned the lenses with hit T-shirt ewith scratches as an result. The Nikon lost his adjustable eye-cups.
Te SV came back with new lenses on a coulance warranty base with no bill.
The Nikon came with a repair bill that was higher then the wholesale price of that bin. For an eye-cup repair!!!!!!!!
That's the difference between your and mine Alpha.

Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski produce top optics like Nikon does with the EDG, but in sales on those top optics range Swarovski beats the rest and also in their handling towards defects they beat the rest. So........

Jan

Bingo!! and no surprise to me. I had an experience with Nikon USA on a repair of a 8x32 EDG I and it was a nightmare of a situation that in the end Nikon made good on it- but because of the experience it forever soured me on having any confidence in their repair and customer service.

Now I know that it was just one experience, but for me it was my only experience with a Nikon product repair. So for that audience of one (Me) it made a lasting impression. So much so that at the time I also had a 8x32 SE in my possession that I was thinking about keeping, and the Nikon repair experience was one of the main reasons ( besides lack of being H2O proof) that made me decide the SE were going back. Great bin- but, if you need service, maybe not so great! Also made me realize that I do not want a Nikon camara either after the Nikon USA repair experience and finding out how they handle there repairs. Just the phone CS was a nightmare.

**And ANY experience I have had with SONA (Swarovski) for CS or repairs has been Stellar!

BTW- my Son In Law is a professional Photographer and he is a Canon man. When I told him about my binocular repair experience, he said he was not surprised. He said Nikon makes great camera gear- but he would never buy their stuff because of the repair reports; and he said that is the consensus of many professional Photographers. Their service after sales just does not match their product. I asked him how Canon's service was- he said it was superb!

 

[brocknroller]

Stephen,

I'm surprised that you had a bad experience with repairs to your 8x32 EDG I, though I'm not surprised that you had problems with it. Was it the focuser or the diopter or both?

In a rush to market (perhaps to get out ahead of Swarovski, which, ironically, then threatened to sue Nikon if it persisted making open bridge roofs), it went ahead with the production of the EDG I even though reviewers of the "prototypes" had reported "spinning focuser knobs" and loose diopters.

So when EDG I's came in for repair, they simply replaced them with EDG IIs. Could be they hadn't manufactured the EDG II yet at the time when you sent your EDG I in for repairs. In any case, Nikon has one of the best warranties in sports optics. They will repair or replace a second hand Nikon bin for $10 + return shipping.

Just as there are sample variation in bins, there are "sample variations" in repair experiences. Nikon sells way, way more bins than Leica, yet I've read more "horror stories" about Leica repairs on these forums than I have about Nikon repairs. I've even read of the occasional dissatisfied Swaro repair, though that's rare.

Should have held on to those SEs, the price is up to $728 at some stores now!

Not surprising that a "Canon man" would diss Nikon cameras. There are probably "Nikon men" would diss Canons. Brand loyalty can run deep, as you must realize from reading posts from certain BF members.

Anyway, Nikon's warranty service in Europe is completely different than its warranty service in the US, so don't take Jan's statement about his customer's experience in Holland as typical for US customers, it's not. In the US, Nikon would have replaced those eyecups under its warranty for $10 + return shipping or free free if they could be user installed.

I do like Nikon's optics, but it's really the company's No Fault Policy that keeps me buying, because if I laid out $1K+ on a used Leica, it would be a crap shoot whether or not they covered repairs under their "Goodwill" policy, and I might end with a repair that would cost almost as much as the bin if the repairs were extensive. With Nikon, I don't have that worry. It's the same low cost no matter what the repair, and if they can't repair it, they will replace it.

You should write Mike Freiberg (can't PM him, but his email is listed somewhere, I'll try to look it up when I'm less busy), and tell him about your experience, perhaps he will offer you a discount on a bin. He might also be able to track down the repair person and find out what happened so that it doesn't happen again. Nikon doesn't want to lose customers, particularly customers like you who purchase their top of the line products.

Brock

 

[jan van daalen]

Brock,

What makes it ironically to your opinion when a brand just protects its patented rights?

Jan.

 

[GeeJayW]

Not surprising that a "Canon man" would diss Nikon cameras. There are probably "Nikon men" would diss Canons. Brand loyalty can run deep, as you must realize from reading posts from certain BF members.

The Canon man did not diss Nikon cameras, only their after sales service.

As for brand loyalty, in photography a lot depends on how much of a system you've built up as to how loyal you/one is. With a decent system it would cost a lot of dosh to swap from Canon to Nikon and the gains/losses in capability and image quality would be minimal. When I went digital, it was a toss up between Canon and Nikon. I'm sure I would enjoy shooting Nikon just as much as Canon.

I can't comment on Canon's after sales, never needed to call on it.

There is always a little bit of brand 'rivalry', but that's cool. "My Canon is better than your Nikon" or vice versa is all a bit of harmless fun.

Interesting that two 'alpha' brands have popped up again though. What happened to Olympus, Sony, Lieca, Samsung et al...?

 

[ceasar]

Brock,

I am on slippery ice now because I am not a photo shop but INMO is the Leica you mentioned not a camera but only an objective combined with an head focus module of the R range (out of production since 2008) and followed up by the M system. The price was 18.000 euro ex VAT.

The measuring stick you mentioned was based on sales between the THREE alpha's.
Only on the EDG models Nikon can compare to those three but not in any other field.
A small example:

I sold an Swarovski SV 8x32 and a Nikon Action to a couple that went for a safari and both came back with defects. The SV was fallen on the groudnd and the owner cleasned the lenses with hit T-shirt ewith scratches as an result. The Nikon lost his adjustable eye-cups.
Te SV came back with new lenses on a coulance warranty base with no bill.
The Nikon came with a repair bill that was higher then the wholesale price of that bin. For an eye-cup repair!!!!!!!!
That's the difference between your and mine Alpha.

Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski produce top optics like Nikon does with the EDG, but in sales on those top optics range Swarovski beats the rest and also in their handling towards defects they beat the rest. So........

Jan

No repairs are free. "Their ain't no such thing as a 'free' lunch!" Fiorello LaGuardia. E finita la cuccangna. TANSTAAFL!

Warranties are not free. Especially the warranties for top of the line binoculars. One pays for them in the original purchase price. They are insurance and insurance is not free. If you don't need to use it, well and good. If you do, be assured that those who have not needed to use theirs are helping to pay for the damages to your instrument. Consider that when you get a warm, cozy feeling for all those damn fools who scratch the lenses of their SVs with their tee shirts and get free replacements for them because it is "good" public relations--which also isn't free.

BTW, a Nikon Action should not be called an Alpha but I have no argument with a Swarovski 8 x 32 SV being called that.

Bob

 

[jan van daalen]

Bob,
Ofcourse you are absolutely right, but in future the SV buyer will promote this brand everywhere and the Nikon buyer will do the opposit.
Jan.

 

[[email protected]]

The Canon man did not diss Nikon cameras, only their after sales service.

As for brand loyalty, in photography a lot depends on how much of a system you've built up as to how loyal you/one is. With a decent system it would cost a lot of dosh to swap from Canon to Nikon and the gains/losses in capability and image quality would be minimal. When I went digital, it was a toss up between Canon and Nikon. I'm sure I would enjoy shooting Nikon just as much as Canon.

I can't comment on Canon's after sales, never needed to call on it.

There is always a little bit of brand 'rivalry', but that's cool. "My Canon is better than your Nikon" or vice versa is all a bit of harmless fun.

Interesting that two 'alpha' brands have popped up again though. What happened to Olympus, Sony, Lieca, Samsung et al...?

I agree that with a decent system (usually many, many lenses) it represents a major investment in money. The one tremendous advantage Nikon had/has is that even their old manual focus f mount lenses will mount on their latest digital cameras (full frame sensor). I have over 12 various Nikkor lenses I've used over the years on my FM2,F3 and F5. Some manual focus, some auto focus but I appreciate the fact that when I pick up a full frame Nikon digital camera those 8,000.00 worth of lenses will not be obsolete.

Canon makes some great cameras/lenses also but when all the Canon users made/make the switch from film to digital they had/have to start from scratch....OUCH.


Steve

 

[ceasar]

Bob,
Ofcourse you are absolutely right, but in future the SV buyer will promote this brand everywhere and the Nikon buyer will do the opposit.
Jan.

Certainly for those who are prone to be careless with their binoculars that is, and should be, a major reason to purchase Swarovski binoculars. Afterwards, while complimenting Swarovski for this largesse they should also remember to thank all the other owners of Swarovski binoculars for supporting this "trickle down" medicare for sick binoculars with their dollars or euros or whatever.

It's kind of an extension of a "value added tax." Wouldn't you agree?


Bob

 

[jan van daalen]

Bob,
I don't know if I fully understand what you mean downhere but generally spoken the "careless" users of Swarovski optics are agreed to pay for their misbehaviour but are pleasantly suprised by the fact that there is no bill attached to the repair. It is not a reason for them to buy Swarovski because the pleasant event happens after the misbehavior of which they are (later on) fully aware of.

In the case of Nikon it should have been a warranty issue as it regulary happens that the eyecups dropp of in our shop when the customer tries them out.

Jan

 

[ceasar]

Bob,.........................................

.....................................................

In the case of Nikon it should have been a warranty issue as it regulary happens that the eyecups dropp of in our shop when the customer tries them out.

Jan

Nikon, to my knowledge, had one problem with eye cups in the past when they first introduced the Monarch, a mid priced and very popular roof prism. Some of them had eye cups with a penchant for collapsing while in use and Nikon got some bad publicity over it. Nikon repaired them and the problem was taken care of in later models. It seemed not to affect their sales as the Monarchs remained very popular. I do not know of it happening on any other models.


More importantly, if the problem is as bad as you describe it above; with, as you state, the eye cups dropping off in your shop when a customer tries one of Nikon's Action binoculars then why do you even carry that model or try to sell it?

Nikon Action binoculars are, after all, inexpensive but good porro prism binoculars which are likely mass produced in China. They are sold everywhere here in the USA.

If the problem occurred reasonably shortly after I purchased one from you I would bring it right back to you and tell you to take it back and exchange it for a good one or give me my money back. You could get credit from Nikon for it. That's reasonable.

The Nikon Action has rubber eye cups which fold down and the Nikon Action Extreme has eye cups which twist up and down. And they all cost under $200.00. The former under $100.00.

Can you find any better examples involving some high quality Nikon binoculars to bring up to illustrate Nikon's poor customer service? Stephen B. has one here.

Bob

 

[jan van daalen]

Bob,

You hit the nail right on the head.

As an retailor you don't know from the beginning how a brand will react on warranty claims. Trust is earned.

So it boils down to: Nikon does not give refunds/credits; it's a take it or leave it policy, so we left it, ditched the brand and refunded the customer.

Jan

 

[Kammerdiner]

Check out a recent Nikon spotting scope thread where an American owner of an early ED50 had the tripod mounting thread simply pull out. This was a design error that Nikon fixed in later versions, including mine. The owner had the mounting thread pull out of the plastic foot. Scope rendered useless unless you want to strap it to a tripod with a bungee cord or something.

The owner sent the scope to Nikon for repair and Nikon sent it back, basically saying that the scope couldn't be fixed. So even though Nikon knew it was a bad design, and even though they changed it in later versions, they said "tough luck" to the owner.

But thanks to Birdforum, and special thanks to Mike Freiburg of Nikon, the owner got a new updated scope.

Now Nikon lost money on that one. Maybe they should design scopes (etc.) that can be repaired rather than merely replaced. But the fact is they knew the original design was faulty and they tried to pass on replacing it. Not too good.

And the Nikon ED50 is a costly thing, especially when you consider that the scope body is made in China. It's a money maker for Nikon. They should back it up.

The ED50 is a fantastic little scope. Just back it up and you can sell some more.

My take on it,
Mark

PS: I should add that Nikon has done an exemplary job with the EDG I / EDG II debacle. Maybe too much in the case of Dennis.

 

[jan van daalen]

So we could say that when a manufacturer makes top quality optics and gives on the same level a warranty over his product we can call him an alpha?
That leaves only one name left.
It's an Austrian virgin and her name is not Heidi.
I rest my case!!

 

[james holdsworth]

So we could say that when a manufacturer makes top quality optics and gives on the same level a warranty over his product we can call him an alpha?
That leaves only one name left.
It's an Austrian virgin and her name is not Heidi.
I rest my case!!

I think you are showing a lot of bias here......not unexpected though. There are many other companies that seem to have great after sales service, not just the one you push constantly.

This ''one'' though, needs good service as it seems to be needed far more than the others.........;]

 

[ceasar]

I still firmly believe that any after purchase service to a damaged or defective binocular has been factored into the original purchase price.

I came to this conclusion years ago after I had purchased and registered a very expensive Graphite Fly Rod made by a famous company. I used it for 3 or 4 years and then the industry began offering "life time" guarantees on these fragile items. I then received a letter from the company which made my fly rod offering to guarantee it against breakage for "life." All I had to do was send them $50.00 to get it!

I expect that the binocular industry is now doing this too in it's sales prices and within it's own parameters. And it can be good public relations and good for business.

Look at it as a business decision by the company to self insure the product. It probably is easier for a company like Swarovski to figure out how to underwrite this cost because they make only very high quality binoculars.

With Nikon it is a different story. Their business model is much different. They make and sell many more binoculars of middling to lower quality than they do high quality binoculars. How then to underwrite or apportion the amount of money that goes to insure the lower priced binoculars? How then to apportion the time of the technicians that do these repairs? The methods needed to resolve these problems would have to be different than those of Swarovski, Leica or Zeiss.

And this can have an affect on public relations. A few critical individual anecdotes, whether true or untrue, in blogs that specialize in these avocations can have some deleterious effects on business reputations. Fortunately the top companies in the Optics Industry have the where with all to survive them.

Businesses like "Consumer Reports" are built around trying to get these rumors right. I get detailed surveys several times a year asking for my opinions on the new Van I purchased last year.

Bob