What ducks are these ? Transilvania - Romania (1 Viewer)

[peterarras]

I am realy confused now!

Both ducks are living on this lake. As far as I have observed there is a difference in size between the two species.

Could this be used to determineto which species the bird belongs?

Cristian

Hi Cristian,
of course you can use the size to determine them, the Pochard is much bigger.
Cheers
Peter.

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Tough one,
As some others,
I also see a juvenile pochard here (however thats the species where I have seen more juveniles, so also more individual variation).

I think this iris colour may be shown by both species, but bill shape and neck shape make me think pochard, as well as the slight greyish cast to the back on some photos

paleness of the cheek and throat also let me think of pochard when i look at this picture of the bird:

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=210310&d=1249247230

 

[Cheshire Birder]

Still hold with my original view of Pochard.

CB

 

[china guy]

Ferruginous is the common winter duck out my way (Sichuan - Western China) - and the bird in your pic certainly hasn't got the Ferruginous look.
Ferruginous is a more petite compact duck - that bird in the pic, with its head/bill shape and dimensions - looks very Common Pochard!!!!
If you see the two species together then there isn't so much room for confusion.
I've enclosed one of our pics of three types of Pochard together (Ferruginous, Red-crested and Common) - and although the common is a male, and at the back of the shot, you can see how this species is a bigger more robust looking duck.
Shame we couldn't have got Baer's into that shot aswell - they're also around here!!!

 

[lou salomon]

hello again.

i see a lot of people here feeling indignant with my approach of this juvenile aythya being a ferruginous. if i wasn't very familiar with both species i would not talk like this. they are the 2 common aythya species in romania where i've birded most and both breed near each other. not fully grown juveniles are much harder than one might expect - at least this is what the present example should have outlined. pitty that we don't have juvs of both species to compare.

now jörn, our anatidae-guru has spoken (sorry jörn, i know you won't like to be addressed like that) so i should shut up now.

but he himself began with the words "a tough one". and he admits having experience only with juvenile pochards.

let me tell what exactly led me to my statement although i won't stick with my initial ID.

it was the darker back than flanks, a hint of white vent and no "spectacles" (paler parts around eye) in the first pic that led me towards nyroca: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=210268&d=1249241615 but even in this i noted it had a long round head, longish bill and i also saw the paler parts on chin and front neck which made me hesitate.

then i saw the next 2 pics posted by cristian in post 12. as said by jörn especially the 3rd pic looks very like a ferina with its long bill and sloping forehead. still there is a darker back than flanks and even more apparent white on undertail coverts, which probably led andrew and valléry to agree on ferruginous.
the final pics (4 and 5 in #14) don't reveal very much new except for the undertail coverts clearly being whitish, pic 4 http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=210318&d=1249248569). finally this ensured me that my initial ID was correct even though head shape seemed off - i put it down to the bird not being dry and relaxed when ferruginous typically shows the short and triangular head shape.
but structural features usually are better than plumage details so i admit i probably was wrong. but the ID is far from being straightford! and i absolutely disagree that size is helpful, even in mixed flocks. i have seen many of them and you can see the difference only if they are resting side by side, never when they feed or preen. it's true, nyroca generally is more compact but in diving juveniles they look very similar shapewise. on the other hand in the field usually there's no question if you have a ferruginous or a pochard in front of you!

i have looked for juveniles of both species on the net and haven't found much, especially not of common pochard! trying to find out if they can show white undertail coverts and no small pale area around eye like females do. i have to search further but if anyone finds appropriate pics i'd be thankfull.

edit: here's a link to juvenile pochards, you clearly can see the ring around their eyes: http://web.me.com/nikborrow/Nik_Borro/UK_Birds.html#56 scroll down to the pochard family. well, attached here is the pic itself.

cheers to all

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

hello again.

i see a lot of people here feeling indignant with my approach of this juvenile aythya being a ferruginous. if i wasn't very familiar with both species i would not talk like this. they are the 2 common aythya species in romania where i've birded most and both breed near each other. not fully grown juveniles are much harder than one might expect - at least this is what the present example should have outlined. pitty that we don't have juvs of both species to compare.

now jörn, our anatidae-guru has spoken (sorry jörn, i know you won't like to be addressed like that) so i should shut up now.

but he himself began with the words "a tough one". and he admits having experience only with juvenile pochards.

let me tell what exactly led me to my statement although i won't stick with my initial ID.

it was the darker back than flanks, a hint of white vent and no "spectacles" (paler parts around eye) in the first pic that led me towards nyroca: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=210268&d=1249241615 but even in this i noted it had a long round head, longish bill and i also saw the paler parts on chin and front neck which made me hesitate.

then i saw the next 2 pics posted by cristian in post 12. as said by jörn especially the 3rd pic looks very like a ferina with its long bill and sloping forehead. still there is a darker back than flanks and even more apparent white on undertail coverts, which probably led andrew and valléry to agree on ferruginous.
the final pics (4 and 5 in #14) don't reveal very much new except for the undertail coverts clearly being whitish, pic 4 http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=210318&d=1249248569). finally this ensured me that my initial ID was correct even though head shape seemed off - i put it down to the bird not being dry and relaxed when ferruginous typically shows the short and triangular head shape.
but structural features usually are better than plumage details so i admit i probably was wrong. but the ID is far from being straightford! and i absolutely disagree that size is helpful, even in mixed flocks. i have seen many of them and you can see the difference only if they are resting side by side, never when they feed or preen. it's true, nyroca generally is more compact but in diving juveniles they look very similar shapewise. on the other hand in the field usually there's no question if you have a ferruginous or a pochard in front of you!

i have looked for juveniles of both species on the net and haven't found much, especially not of common pochard! trying to find out if they can show white undertail coverts and no small pale area around eye like females do. i have to search further but if anyone finds appropriate pics i'd be thankfull.

edit: here's a link to juvenile pochards, you clearly can see the ring around their eyes: http://web.me.com/nikborrow/Nik_Borro/UK_Birds.html#56 scroll down to the pochard family. well, attached here is the pic itself.

cheers to all

Lou, please do not shut up! I do not feel offended in any way ( Though I am not a guru for any duck in the worldI guess) - and I as everybody else can get a duck wrong!

And i think this is an interesting example of a duck which is indeed not so easy to interpret (also I am fairly sure you have seen more Ferrugineous ducks than I have).

However for me it still seems to be Pochard (hybrid possibility not excluded).

Ferina can have a very plain face and the back slightly darker than the flanks- see the following pictures of females:

http://www.birdingworld.co.uk/images/Pochard4522.jpg

http://www.zoonar.de/img/www_repository2/b0/87/77/10_094344c45b5e88579ce3bec8a74305fb.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arade/2583773252

http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/20041/wm/pd1102061.jpg

However in these birds seems to be a bit more eyering than in the bird here, as you noted.

But eclipse males also show no eyering...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5Svz2nNcEWg/SZmkaN3fmWI/AAAAAAAACvs/ACqN1TnEkvI/taffeland+080906+UT+079.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/gparedes/image/66300072

so maybe it is possible this bird with its not very contrasty face is a juvenile male? (Its a pity there are not more photos of juvenile ferina on the web)

 

[ampersand]

The 2nd is def a little grebe.

 

[Lappkrabben]

I'm in the pochard camp. The reasons is the shape of the head and bill and that's enough for me.

 

[lou salomon]

if the ducks of the world knew about your vivid interest for them, jörn, they might choose you as one of their gurus - besides you are the one here on BF at least.

i'm absolutely fine with the duck being a pochard. yes, a pity there are hardly any pics of juveniles on the net. and yes, i've seen quite a lot ferruginous ducks, once a resting flock of over 450 ind. in october (on that occasion i studied them and was astouned about their variability concerning plumage). i admit not having studied thoroughly fresh (and still growing) juveniles - especially i didn't check eyerings and undertail coverts on juv pochards - next time i see them i'll try to pay attention to these details.

thank you folks for your opinions, and thank you cristian for sharing your very good pics!

 

[Lappkrabben]

I can add that on my screen i see the paler parts of the of the bill/beak wich shows the paler pattern that is typical pochard. I cannot remember ever seen this pattern on a ferruginous.

I understand that an adult female pochard would show pale eyering, paler grey back and sides. I would say this bird is a 1 cy bird but not in a real juvenile plumage ("first adult" or similar).

The bird has IMO a fylly grown bill and not a un-normal big bill that's so typical for a not completely grown juvenile duck. But that's my opinion.

 

[crs]

In spring I have made, in the same location, some photos with both species of ducks.
May be there are of any help in the ID.

 

[lou salomon]

is it dumbraveni, cristian?

we are discussing a juvenile bird, adults are straightfort. but thanks for the photos.

 

[lou salomon]

i have found a lot of pics of nyroca and ferina on a hungarian birding site. this is the search result if anyone's interested:

nyroca: http://birding.hu/fotoKereses.do?method=search&fajId=0&fajNev=ferruginous+duck&fotos=

ferina: http://birding.hu/fotoKereses.do?method=search&fajId=0&fajNev=common+pochard&fotos=

many of the female ferruginous ducks depicted have the paler parts on chin and foreneck seen on the discussed bird. not to question the ID again, just for investigating features discussed above.

selected ferruginous:

http://birding.hu/img/22697-M9YV3TIL6R8PGZ4VS7KDXEQAWUZRAMVQ (not fully grown juv)

http://birding.hu/img/22349-YLAR0DPZ9B5OB0NU9SQR3CU92VLLGKZD

http://birding.hu/img/22348-SD7L0LRWVK5HPFAYMAM22HGVNKDLIV45

http://birding.hu/img/8652-1FXEQUSSR2CVKIFV71SSYBXEW6A5V4SU pretty similar to the subject bird! (no specs, but also no white undertail coverts)

http://birding.hu/img/22317-0IUTTQENMFJV8CTA0HIWZA523917ABTR

http://birding.hu/img/15413-0G3I6WX9H9E0G0PE9BWFWEOQ94ELCL1Q

http://birding.hu/img/14620-S6KFO3MBYYHQFPSUWI3GMLW1WMY4CPDD

http://birding.hu/img/3045-GV5P6JJZBLD2O18958EI65LOJLAZTH3N

http://birding.hu/img/2341-IPYQWLRCGZF921ZG2KVDN8521HLMTCFB

and pochards:

http://birding.hu/img/30609-Q6MAIXS7LE7BD9R0EAZFCLKA8Y36VQSN

http://www.birding.hu/img/22145-64HE931WXI1NA1TTZZ9O4C6M0CH64R0K (no "specs")

http://www.birding.hu/img/14445-0QD4L6GRWNP7QC76KI9R5POSOC4WGJHC juvs i think

http://birding.hu/img/14326-RD7TLRF8J5BFYG2AGDW8KJWMPHA05HAL darker back than flanks in the female


all the best,

 

[Lappkrabben]

I'm not sure anymore about pochard (honest) after looking at some more photos/pictures and i admit i was wrong about the bill. The bill colouration is within range for ferruginous.

But to be certain/sure i think we would have needed to see this bird IRL with the wingbar, the rump etc. Sorry for the confusion. I had wrong memories of the ferruginous colouration in bill. I might as well be wrong when it comes to shape and colouration also.

 

[crs]

Hello Lou,

It is the third lake from Rotbav.

 

[lou salomon]

thanks cristian. both nyroca and ferina are (probably) breeding at those ponds as far as i've observed.
well, it would be nice to hear more people's opinions about this and especially on why they think so. remember that western europeans are used to see the nice male (or winter female) "fudge" with triangular head and tail uptilted etc.
i'm not going to make an ID statement on this as 5 people including me were swaying/pending with their judgements.
CAU, JanJ...?

 

[ody]

The Thread is allready very hot!I can't say anything about the ducks.I am still studying them and never can be sure about id them ,especially jung birds.
I just want to add,if it helps , two pics made in Petron Lake,Northwest Greece,in the same afternoon.

 

[peterarras]

i have found a lot of pics of nyroca and ferina on a hungarian birding site. this is the search result if anyone's interested:

nyroca: http://birding.hu/fotoKereses.do?method=search&fajId=0&fajNev=ferruginous+duck&fotos=

ferina: http://birding.hu/fotoKereses.do?method=search&fajId=0&fajNev=common+pochard&fotos=

many of the female ferruginous ducks depicted have the paler parts on chin and foreneck seen on the discussed bird. not to question the ID again, just for investigating features discussed above.

selected ferruginous:

http://birding.hu/img/22697-M9YV3TIL6R8PGZ4VS7KDXEQAWUZRAMVQ (not fully grown juv)

http://birding.hu/img/22349-YLAR0DPZ9B5OB0NU9SQR3CU92VLLGKZD

http://birding.hu/img/22348-SD7L0LRWVK5HPFAYMAM22HGVNKDLIV45

http://birding.hu/img/8652-1FXEQUSSR2CVKIFV71SSYBXEW6A5V4SU pretty similar to the subject bird! (no specs, but also no white undertail coverts)

http://birding.hu/img/22317-0IUTTQENMFJV8CTA0HIWZA523917ABTR

http://birding.hu/img/15413-0G3I6WX9H9E0G0PE9BWFWEOQ94ELCL1Q

http://birding.hu/img/14620-S6KFO3MBYYHQFPSUWI3GMLW1WMY4CPDD

http://birding.hu/img/3045-GV5P6JJZBLD2O18958EI65LOJLAZTH3N

http://birding.hu/img/2341-IPYQWLRCGZF921ZG2KVDN8521HLMTCFB

and pochards:

http://birding.hu/img/30609-Q6MAIXS7LE7BD9R0EAZFCLKA8Y36VQSN

http://www.birding.hu/img/22145-64HE931WXI1NA1TTZZ9O4C6M0CH64R0K (no "specs")

http://www.birding.hu/img/14445-0QD4L6GRWNP7QC76KI9R5POSOC4WGJHC juvs i think

http://birding.hu/img/14326-RD7TLRF8J5BFYG2AGDW8KJWMPHA05HAL darker back than flanks in the female


all the best,

Hi Lou,
it's very interesting, thanks a lot for sharing these pics, but you have two Pochard's under your ferruginou's-collection:
http://birding.hu/img/8652-1FXEQUSSR...SSYBXEW6A5V4SU
and
http://birding.hu/img/2341-IPYQWLRCG...VDN8521HLMTCFB
the bird in the back.
Thread's like this one make it so interesting, we can only learn from it.
Thanks a lot to all.
Cheers
Peter.

 

[peterarras]

Sorry, something was going rong,
it is the 4. and the last picture.
Cheers
Peter.

 

[lou salomon]

right peter, i'm sorry i don't know how this http://birding.hu/img/8652-1FXEQUSSR2CVKIFV71SSYBXEW6A5V4SU has sneeked in my ferruginous selection - clearly a pochard (and i think a juvenile one), and of course it is in the pochard gallery of birding.hu

http://birding.hu/img/8658-NT0OTWO1JJXAE4QDICBG97N98IG49QT3 is a similar pic from the next day (26.07.2006), the bird in the back could well be the one in the other pic.

the female in the other pic you mentioned ( http://birding.hu/img/2341-IPYQWLRCGZF921ZG2KVDN8521HLMTCFB ) probably is a pochard too but it has a markedly pale belly! but head looks spot on for pochard. i have seen moulting ferruginous females though with similar pale clouding on back like this!