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Why do peoply buy $2500 binoculars ? (1 Viewer)

bh46118

Well-known member
Dennis seems like a nice enough person, but I wouldn't sell him short by comparing him to me.:king: On a hyperbole free note, where do you think optics are headed in the future ? Remember, I am also a huge Porro fan, and I believe my Minox BP, that I paid a whopping $179 for, is still the best I've seen for retrieving the smallest details.


Did I write that ?, I`m pretty sure I wrote no roof can deliver a view like a Porro, at least none I`v tried, hopefully I stay away from hyperbole, maybe others can correct me on that.


You like honesty I know, truth is I`m tired of hyperbolic posts, and like you I struggle not to respond, but I`ll leave you and Dennis to carry on together, you`re two peas in a pod.
 
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bh46118

Well-known member
Do IS optics exhibit the aliasing or "jaggies" seen in digital stills ?

Digital imaging and stabilization will change birding behaviors just as it changed photographers.
In earlier times, photographers in the field focused solely on getting photos,
leaving the sorting and second guessing to the darkroom interval.
Today, they spend more time reviewing their shots as they come in and then either go for another round or move on.
Soon birders will go down the same road, wandering through the countryside, eyes fixed on their screens, deciding whether the images are yet good enough to pass muster.
There may be a backlash, Neanderthals agitating to preserve 'organic birding', but imho, that natural organic look does not have a prayer.
 

BruceH

Avatar: Harris Hawk
........

About 97% of this thread is about braggadocio and oneupmanship ........ If the Yosemite was so good, why did a company with good financial backing drop it? I know the answer; I'd just like to hear what others think.

..........

Since you know the answer, then how about a to the point, simple straight forward explanation. That would be helpful. Thanks.

.
 

etudiant

Registered User
Supporter
Do IS optics exhibit the aliasing or "jaggies" seen in digital stills ?

No, the current generation of IS binoculars is 'all organic'.
My Canon 10x42ISL is a conventional porro design, albeit with a modern eye piece, no different operationally from my earlier Docter 12x50BGA.
The only difference is that when the stabilization is engaged, a soft mounted optical element in the light path moves to counteract the shakes generated by hand holding. The benefit is very apparent when looking at birds in flight or when tracking hyperactive small warblers in the trees.

Do note that the Sony DEV-50 is an all digital variant, where the optics feed a video sensor that drives the display screen. Jaggies and aliasing are possible in that approach. On the other hand, the low light sensitivity is well beyond the human eye, so it is a superior twilight observation device.
 

ceasar

Well-known member
Digital imaging and stabilization will change birding behaviors just as it changed photographers.
In earlier times, photographers in the field focused solely on getting photos,
leaving the sorting and second guessing to the darkroom interval.
Today, they spend more time reviewing their shots as they come in and then either go for another round or move on.
Soon birders will go down the same road, wandering through the countryside, eyes fixed on their screens, deciding whether the images are yet good enough to pass muster.
There may be a backlash, Neanderthals agitating to preserve 'organic birding', but imho, that natural organic look does not have a prayer.



Forget all that. Digital technology may change birding photographers habits but not binocular users habits. The issue is the human vs the machine when it comes to binoculars.

As you noted above people will still use their own eyes to criticize how digital photographs come out just like they did with analog film technology, although they can do it much faster with digital technology.

Not so with binoculars, a tool of the moment. Glass is transparent. When you look through glass lenses at birds your own mind does the computing. You will be substituting a digital machine for your own eyes when you use a digital binocular or what ever "screens" are substituting for them by putting a machine between yourself and your brain for it to show you what its programming wants you to see.

Wendell Berry said it best in his essay Life Is A Miracle: An Essay Against Modern Superstition. "It is easy for me to imagine that the next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures and people who wish to live as machines."
 
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etudiant

Registered User
Supporter
Forget all that.
As you noted above people will still use their own eyes to criticize how digital photographs come out just like they did with analog film technology, although they can do it much faster with digital technology.

Not so with binoculars, a tool of the moment. Glass is transparent. When you look through glass lenses at birds your own mind does the computing. You will be substituting a digital machine for your own eyes when you use a digital binocular or what ever "screens" are substituting for them by putting a machine between yourself and your brain for it to show you what its programming wants you to see.

The birding experience will probably be changed by digital technology just as photography was, it is just that we won't participate.
It seems apparent that the 'Twitter/Facebook' generation considers an unshared experience as one not worth having. So birding as an individual joy and pleasure is facing generational headwinds. Still, look at the bright side, think of how much more fun compulsive listers will have when they can tweet images of their latest ticks to their envious friends in real time.
 

Sancho

Registered User
Supporter
Forget all that. Digital technology may change birding photographers habits but not binocular users habits........binoculars, a tool of the moment.

I'm inclined to agree. A photo is a record of an image, and cameras dovetailed nicely with the save/upload/download/share/comment etc. digital revolution. Binos are used mostly just to look at things. Birds. Boats. Horses. Planes. Things that are far away that you'd like to get a closer look at. Those who want to look and record have binos and a camera. The beauty of binos is their relative simplicity compared to digi-stuff. (Even the Canon IS binos were too much jiggery-pokery for me - I've owned all except the 18x, and got rid of them all.)
Mind you, the first time I saw a hand-held mobile phone, in China in 1992 or so, my wife said I should get one. I told her it looked like a silly idea to me and would never catch on. In Europe, I explained, we have a phone at home, a phone at work, and phone-boxes on the street if we need to contact someone when we're out and about. So it's possible I'm wrong. Again.
 

ceasar

Well-known member
To WJC Re Leupold's Yosemite,

Because 6x30 and 8x30 Porros have been manufactured by the millions for about 100 years by every binocular company worth its name over those years.

Leupold had a good idea and reintroduced them in an attractive package for civilian use and they were a big success.

Then everybody else wanted to get in the act and started making them and competing with Leupold. Some could build them for less and it got to the point that Leupold did not want the bother anymore.

Bob
 

Swedpat

Well-known member
To WJC Re Leupold's Yosemite,

Because 6x30 and 8x30 Porros have been manufactured by the millions for about 100 years by every binocular company worth its name over those years.

Leupold had a good idea and reintroduced them in an attractive package for civilian use and they were a big success.

Then everybody else wanted to get in the act and started making them and competing with Leupold. Some could build them for less and it got to the point that Leupold did not want the bother anymore.

Bob

Bob,

Do you tell there are 6x30s optically as good as Yosemite at even lower price? And which are the these models?

Patric
 

WJC

Well-known member
To WJC Re Leupold's Yosemite,

Because 6x30 and 8x30 Porros have been manufactured by the millions for about 100 years by every binocular company worth its name over those years.

Leupold had a good idea and reintroduced them in an attractive package for civilian use and they were a big success.

Then everybody else wanted to get in the act and started making them and competing with Leupold. Some could build them for less and it got to the point that Leupold did not want the bother anymore.

Bob

Hey, you're stealing my thunder! I'm working on my letter, now. :t:

Bill
 

kabsetz

Well-known member
The resolution is today probably higher than the average eyesight is able to make use of. An even better resolution will demand higher magnification than handhold magnifications to reveal. So I am pretty sure we are very close to the limit today.

The resolution of the best designs is higher than the average eyesight is able to make use of, but unfortunately production tolerances are not high enough that a buyer of even an alpha-class binocular could be sure to get an actual binocular off the shelf that would be eyesight-limited rather than instrument-limited. Higher precision in manufacturing processes is likely to improve the situation significantly in the next ten years.

Kimmo
 

WJC

Well-known member
Welcome to that 97% club! :t: ;)

Sorry Bruce:

No cigar. I have "alphas"; I have cheapies. I have cheapies I like as much as some alphas. I don't brag about either; I'm not an "A" type. I just seem that way to those who don't know me. There will always be something better, something lighter, something more robust, something brighter, etc. And, all that will be bragged about by the ego behind the eyes used for observing and how much certain aspects mean to that ego. I've seen folks brag about the wide field on their bino, when that field started getting crappy 1/3 of the distance off axis and the CA was horrible. The guy who thunk up, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,” was obviously a binocular aficionado. :t:

Bill
 

WJC

Well-known member
Since you know the answer, then how about a to the point, simple straight forward explanation. That would be helpful. Thanks.

.

Hi Bruce:

I had assumed by now, some of those folks who like to take me to task for being in the business so long, and not ashamed of myself for thinking that experience is worth something to a forum like this, would have jumped all over this question.

First, it should be said that I DO NOT know why LEUPOLD dropped the YOSEMITE!

I do know, however, why so many other good binoculars have been dropped, and doubt the importer, Leupold, is any different.

First, as Ceasar points out, competition! We take so many things in the supply chain for granted: “We want it, why can’t we have it”? We see the importers of the brand as king; they are not. That position goes to the OEMs in Asia, and they’re not bashful with their demands. My Baywatch telescope came about because the brass telescope I was getting from Celestron dried up. About 50% of the instruments coming into Torrence had poor finishes. Alan Hale, then CEO of Celestron, told his OEM he needed instruments with a better finish. But selling the product in great quantities to plenty of other customers, Asia didn’t need the fly in their ointment and told Alan to “Take it or leave it.” When you have more orders than you can fill, anyway, you can do stuff like that--Celestron was just ONE customer. And now, with price of brass going wild (between 2 orders, prices more than doubled), apathy for the Baywatch running rampant at Captain’s (Emery sold Captain’s October 1), and me not having the money to keep it going, it is another well thought-out and respected product that has gone the way of the dodo.

Then too, is the overall sales of the product. What was it adding to the company’s bottom line? Many of you care that a good bino bit the dust. That feeling hits us all. I thought Nikon’s dropping of the EII was a really dumb, . . . make that stupid, move. BUT, was it stupid to those who keep the books and worry about shareholders? More people are buying roofs; the EII was NOT a roof. What to do? Wanting to increase the bottom line, they had to know. I feel confident it will be back, just probably not in my lifetime.

And what about side issues? Binos start out with molds. Those molds don’t last indefinitely, and cost upwards of a quarter million dollars to replace. If you sign for enough units, over a specified period, the OEM may absorb the cost. Most, however, are paid for by the importer. So, if the bino looks to be a marginal seller, regardless of its quality, and it’s time for new molds, hard decisions have to be made. In order for a full-line importer to be practical, he can’t develop an undue love for any particular instrument.

“Binoculars are not made to look through; they’re made to sell.” —the former CEO of one of America’s biggest bino importers

And there are plenty of other reasons: the cost of glass, the cost of turning that glass into a lens, etc. Of course, the OEM usually doesn’t do that, but the OEM has his own OEM. Glass, metal, machining, testing, advertising, and more, cost money. Binoculars are not made in a vacuum. So, what causes a bino to be dropped? Sadly, to the OEM, the observer is way down on the list of special people.

Bill

PS Trying to please everyone is like trying to ice skate uphill; it tightens your stomach muscles but you can never get very far. :cat:
 
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Hermann

Well-known member
The resolution of the best designs is higher than the average eyesight is able to make use of, but unfortunately production tolerances are not high enough that a buyer of even an alpha-class binocular could be sure to get an actual binocular off the shelf that would be eyesight-limited rather than instrument-limited. Higher precision in manufacturing processes is likely to improve the situation significantly in the next ten years.

Interestingly I find that porros seems to be less affected by the problem of production tolerances than roofs. I've seen a couple of roofs with easily visible differences between the two tubes, but never a top class porro (like the Nikon SE, the Swarovski Habicht or one of the Zeiss West porros). My take is that roofs must be made to much stricter tolerances than porros, and that still seems to cause a few problems here or there.

Hermann
 
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NDhunter

Experienced observer
United States
There has been a couple of posts about Leupold discontinuing the Yosemite binocular line.

That is not true, they added the 10x30 this past year to go along with the 6x30 and 8x30.
I just spoke to a representative from Leupold to confirm.

I own the 6x30, and have a couple more for my grandkids when they are old enough.
They are a nice binocular in this price range.

Jerry
 

bh46118

Well-known member
There isn't anything to brag about in just owning something. To try and inform others of the capability of something that you own and believe in is just simply information sharing. The only people that could legitimately "brag" about say the new Zeiss SF for example would be Gerold Dobler and his design team, not some swingin d--k like myself that just happens to buy one. What I'm saying Bill is that I don't think you're bragging if you just keep telling it like it is.:t:

I have "alphas"; I have cheapies. I have cheapies I like as much as some alphas. I don't brag about either; I'm not an "A" type. I just seem that way to those who don't know me.
Bill
 
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bh46118

Well-known member
Herman, Porros are less affected than Porros ?:king:

Interestingly I find that porros seems to be less affected by the problem of production tolerances than porros. I've seen a couple of roofs with easily visible differences between the two tubes, but never a top class porro (like the Nikon SE, the Swarovski Habicht or one of the Zeiss West porros). My take is that roofs must be made to much stricter tolerances than porros, and that still seems to cause a few problems here or there.

Hermann
 

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