Cameras have had IS for years, but they are smaller, and you are not trying to correct the shake on a big FOV like you are on a WA binocular. It is going to take a more powerful IS system to correct the shake on a binocular with a 7.5 degree FOV. I think that is the technological problem but if Swarovski doesn't solve it Kamakura will in the next year, and if they develop an IS binocular with a wider FOV and superb optics they will dominate the market. Kamakura is very aggressive in developing IS binoculars because they already have introduced a 50mm version in the SIG Sauer and Kite IS binoculars. If Swarovski doesn't accept the fact that IS is a superior technology, they will be left behind the same way Kodak was when they rejected digital camera's.
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Why doesn't Swarovski make an NL Pure 10x42 IS and a NL Pure 14x52 IS binocular? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Dennis Mau
- Start date
If Swarovski doesn't accept IS and develop it, Kamakura will. They already are, and they will dominate the market once they develop a WA IS alpha level binocular. These are 50mm IS binoculars, and they weigh less than 33 0z. which isn't much heavier than an NL 10x42.
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The stabilized Sig is a wannabe pretender in the hunting market, and is taken seriously by nobody with any experience at all. Ergos are horrible, FOV is a joke, and build quality questionable.
Bino/rf's are still plagued with problems electronically. There are many cases today of not being able to range effectively, if at all in cold temps at 32* and below. That was the case with me in 3 different samples of the Leica 3200.com. They sucked in cold weather. Several other brands have fought the same battle.
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Conndomat
United States of Europe
Yes, yes, Swarovski has a lot of construction sites!
First these IS binoculars and then this nasty SRBC.
In fact, the triumph of IS binoculars has been announced for 20 years and the decline of conventional binoculars has been predicted - a long road ahead.
But, development will probably take a different direction, in a few years there will be a whole consortium of features on the binoculars alongside IS, see AX, the IS will then probably just be a small cherry among a lot of bells and whistles, who needs it...
The 8/10x56 formats will be available soon.
Andreas
First these IS binoculars and then this nasty SRBC.
In fact, the triumph of IS binoculars has been announced for 20 years and the decline of conventional binoculars has been predicted - a long road ahead.
But, development will probably take a different direction, in a few years there will be a whole consortium of features on the binoculars alongside IS, see AX, the IS will then probably just be a small cherry among a lot of bells and whistles, who needs it...
There is a sale here because more and more hunters are using thermal imaging cameras and night vision devices and no longer have a real need for binoculars.
The 8/10x56 formats will be available soon.
Andreas
Im thinking tying this (IS development in a bino) to FOV as THE technical issue is a bit misleading. Sorta makes it sound like we know what designers are dealing with, when we really dont. Seems hard to imagine the need to stabilize the image for the cameras I see out and about, or alongside sporting events on the tube, either of which have those ungainly long lens, was an easier or less technical problem to solve than the one we're discussing.
I know you like to drop the Kamakura name, Dennis. I have no idea what your relationship to that company is or what you may know about it, but something tells me in this globalized world with manufacturing spread here and there, we dont know much about who does what these days. Dropping the name of a contract manufacturer you've heard of but many/most bino consumers never have, doesn't really make these underlying points more credible.
It seems obvious, lens and coatings technology has kind of peaked. There's only so much that bending of tubes or relocating lens to try and create a perception of new and improved via ergonomics can do. Since the fundamental purpose of a binocular is to magnify, but the combination of human frailty and the size/weight of existing binoculars limits our ability to utilize more magnification, as a place to go IS makes perfect sense. In fact is a no brainer. We'd just like to see it in a package more reminiscent of an SF, NL etc. Thats for Product Managers, R&D folks, Process engineers, purchasing agents, (none of whom to my knowledge comes here), to do.
Andreas, Could you elaborate please?
Swaro has a lot of construction sites?
Whats SRBC?
What whole consortium of features beyond IS you thinking about?
Whats AX?
Sale here... where?
Cant imagine hunters I know here (US) taking to the night and forgoing daytime activity. Are you sure?
Camera lenses have had IS for a long time - but how many lenses and how good is the IS? A camera only needs to correct for a fraction of a second generally during the very limited exposure - I don't know - maybe others do - is camera lens IS active constantly? Also, it seems that most camera companies have decided that IBIS is better - or that IBIS w/ Lens IS is better. If I were to compare 2 lenses - one with IS and one without - I don't think I'd notice any difference in size or quality of glass, unless that was part of the design decision.
But - it does seem like IS in the lens is actually a much smaller market than I had thought. Just as a proxy - I went to B&H and looked at all mirrorless lenses (so, recent lenses all) and there are only 153 that have the "Feature" of IS vs. a total of over 1600 lenses. That's a puny amount - and so it must be fairly hard to make lens IS that can compete with body IS.
I have the Sig 16x42 and I think its wonderful. I got my first spotting scope this summer and used it quite a lot immediately after it showed up. When I then picked up my 8x40 SFL and had a look my immediate reaction was: "I can't look through these things, the image dances all over the place, these things are unusable". It took me a short amount of time to "go back" to using an optic that wasn't rock steady. So I find that the magic of a scope is the steady view as much as it is this magnification - one without the other isn't usable (or as usable).
I very much look forward to trying out the new 10x25 Nikon - and for any of the established optic companies to introduce more IS choice in bins.
But - it does seem like IS in the lens is actually a much smaller market than I had thought. Just as a proxy - I went to B&H and looked at all mirrorless lenses (so, recent lenses all) and there are only 153 that have the "Feature" of IS vs. a total of over 1600 lenses. That's a puny amount - and so it must be fairly hard to make lens IS that can compete with body IS.
I have the Sig 16x42 and I think its wonderful. I got my first spotting scope this summer and used it quite a lot immediately after it showed up. When I then picked up my 8x40 SFL and had a look my immediate reaction was: "I can't look through these things, the image dances all over the place, these things are unusable". It took me a short amount of time to "go back" to using an optic that wasn't rock steady. So I find that the magic of a scope is the steady view as much as it is this magnification - one without the other isn't usable (or as usable).
I very much look forward to trying out the new 10x25 Nikon - and for any of the established optic companies to introduce more IS choice in bins.
Hermann
Well-known member
IBIS doesn't really work well with long lenses. Virtually all telephotos have had IS for many years now.
Not really. But it's more economical to make a camera with IBIS and lots of short lenses without IS. Back in the times when DSLRs ruled many short lenses had IS as well, including the much maligned, cheap "kit lenses". DSLRs have no IBIS.
That's what I meant when I wrote IS is highly addictive. Not only you get more detail on a bird, it also allows you to enjoy the beauty of a bird more.
So am I.
Hermann
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Hermann
Well-known member
But this thread isn't about binos with RF. It's about binos with IS. In the camera world IS is a mature, well-established feature. Telephoto lenses with IS have been used in all kinds of environments for many, many years, including very wet and cold environments such as Greenland and Iceland. Reports of any problems have been few and far between.
BTW, Kimmo (Kabsetz) has been using IS binoculars for a couple of decades. He's in Finland, a country with quite unforgiving winters.
Hermann
Conndomat
United States of Europe
yes of course...
Competition from IS binoculars and cheap products from China.
...cheap products from China.
AX Visio - SWAROVSKI OPTIK
www.swarovskioptik.com
"The AX Visio 10x32 is an AI-supported binocular and combines outstanding SWAROVISION quality with digital intelligence. The identification function helps you identify birds and other animal species at the touch of a button. Thanks to the revolutionary “Share your discovery” function, you can immediately show your companion where you have seen an animal. Easily create photos or videos and share them with your community. The experience is complete with the accompanying SWAROVSKI OPTIK Outdoor app: Customize your AX Visio to suit your individual needs."
Germany...
Then I would like to invite you to spend a night looking at the stars in the fields. Night hunting is a new popular sport here, bad for inexperienced amateur astronomers.
Nobody needs 8/10x56 during the day.
Andreas
Thank youyes of course...
Competition from IS binoculars and cheap products from China.
...cheap products from China.
AX Visio - SWAROVSKI OPTIK
"The AX Visio 10x32 is an AI-supported binocular and combines outstanding SWAROVISION quality with digital intelligence. The identification function helps you identify birds and other animal species at the touch of a button. Thanks to the revolutionary “Share your discovery” function, you can immediately show your companion where you have seen an animal. Easily create photos or videos and share them with your community. The experience is complete with the accompanying SWAROVSKI OPTIK Outdoor app: Customize your AX Visio to suit your individual needs."
Germany...
Then I would like to invite you to spend a night looking at the stars in the fields. Night hunting is a new popular sport here, bad for inexperienced amateur astronomers.
Nobody needs 8/10x56 during the day.
Andreas
Those new Nikon 10x25 S/12x35S stabilized binoculars look pretty nice. Maybe it will take a Japanese company like Nikon to bring out some new smaller IS binoculars that are usable for birding. I would imagine they have an advantage with IS over Swarovski because they already use it in their cameras. The FOV on these new Nikon's isn't bad for a pocket binocular at 5.4 and 4.5 degrees, but still smaller than I prefer. They will be the smallest IS binocular currently on the market, though. There is a thread on them on Bird Forum if you are interested.
www.birdforum.net
Updated Nikon 10x25S and 12x25S Stabilized binoculars
I have no problems with hand held 12x50 binoculars. It is at 14x and greater levels of magnification where I need either a tripod or stabilized binoculars. I added the Sig-Sauer Zulu6 HDX 16x42 a couple months ago and the stabilization works very well. The Sig-Sauer use a single AA battery that...
www.birdforum.net
John A Roberts
Well-known member
In brief . . .
Start by asking why Swarovski doesn't make wide angle image stabilised 10x42 and 14x52 binoculars.
State that they could do so:
'With their technology and optical expertise, I know they could, and they could do it quite quickly.'
Immediately assert that they choose not to do so:
'I think the reason is they know if they produced two binoculars like that they would cannibalize all their other binoculars because even if they cost $5000 it would be the only binocular people would buy because it could replace all their other binoculars for hunter's and birders.'
Use an AI programme to confirm the obvious:
'The reason there aren't many stabilized binoculars with a large field of view (FOV) is primarily due to the technical limitations . . . '
Notwithstanding what Swarovski has publicly stated, provide a timeline to introduction:
'I have a suspicion Swarovski is working on IS binoculars in Tyrol right now and will introduce them in a year to 18 months.'
But also question if they are trying hard enough - or at all:
'I wonder how hard they have tried? I think they figure they do alright with conventional binoculars, so why change their successful formula.'
. . . so 🤷♂️
John
p.s. And unsurprisingly, overnight my time . . .
If a post proves to be inconvenient, just delete it and make out it never existed:
Start by asking why Swarovski doesn't make wide angle image stabilised 10x42 and 14x52 binoculars.
State that they could do so:
'With their technology and optical expertise, I know they could, and they could do it quite quickly.'
Immediately assert that they choose not to do so:
'I think the reason is they know if they produced two binoculars like that they would cannibalize all their other binoculars because even if they cost $5000 it would be the only binocular people would buy because it could replace all their other binoculars for hunter's and birders.'
Use an AI programme to confirm the obvious:
'The reason there aren't many stabilized binoculars with a large field of view (FOV) is primarily due to the technical limitations . . . '
Notwithstanding what Swarovski has publicly stated, provide a timeline to introduction:
'I have a suspicion Swarovski is working on IS binoculars in Tyrol right now and will introduce them in a year to 18 months.'
But also question if they are trying hard enough - or at all:
'I wonder how hard they have tried? I think they figure they do alright with conventional binoculars, so why change their successful formula.'
. . . so 🤷♂️
John
p.s. And unsurprisingly, overnight my time . . .
If a post proves to be inconvenient, just delete it and make out it never existed:
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Here are the new Kite 14x50 and 18x50 stabilized binoculars. Again, the FOV is only 3.9 degrees on the 14x50, so still narrow even with a 50mm aperture.
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As a long time IS owner I feel that it becomes more useful with added magnification, but isn’t so important at the 8x level many use in the daytime. If you want magnification and don’t want to carry a scope then IS is a good option, but there is a lot to cram in to make it work and there will be compromises. I can’t see myself buying another IS bino, not because they don’t work amazingly, but because I don’t have a need for a handheld high power bino, I use other mounted options for the higher powers.
Swarovski hold an IS patent already around what looks like the ATC specs, which could have removed the need for a tripod when using if it had been implemented. Maybe they’ll add it to other optics.
From the many FB ads for ATX I see, I would guess that the scopes would be the next Swarowski product line to get an update, but who knows…
Peter
Swarovski hold an IS patent already around what looks like the ATC specs, which could have removed the need for a tripod when using if it had been implemented. Maybe they’ll add it to other optics.
From the many FB ads for ATX I see, I would guess that the scopes would be the next Swarowski product line to get an update, but who knows…
Peter
I think at magnifications above 10x IS becomes critically important. It is either IS or a tripod if you want a steady view unless you have exceptionally steady hands. The head rest on the NL helps quite a bit and enables some birders to hold the NL 12x42 pretty steady, but it becomes difficult, especially if it is windy. Like you say, the technology is such that there is a lot to cram into an IS binocular, and they end up being too large and cumbersome for many birders, making it not worth it to carry them into the field. Maybe the Canon 10x42 IS-L is the best we can do with IS right now. Possibly, once the technology increases so that they can make a WA IS binocular of reasonable size with good low light performance, they will become more popular. The new Sig Sauer IS 14x50, 16x50 and 18x50 are huge, but not too bad weight wise at 33 oz.
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tenex
reality-based
Think again. Binoculars don't have "a big FOV" at all by camera standards. Most are the equivalent of a 300-400mm telephoto, whereas cameras have mostly shorter lenses with much more FOV. In any case magnification is the challenge, not FOV. It can't actually be hard to build stabilized bins with wider fields, they would just become more expensive and probably even more bulky. Part of that problem may be the added difficulty of stabilizing two (collimated) barrels at once.
Why do some people keep making unrealistic predictions of the inevitable future? IS bins could only render conventional ones obsolete if the majority of users decided (as only a tiny minority have already) that IS was enough of a priority to sacrifice compactness, FOV, etc. That has not happened yet and there is no reason to expect that it will.
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