Why No More High End Porros? (1 Viewer)

[etudiant]

Here is a question to ponder. If the big three did make an new alpha porro do you think it could be as good or better than the alpha roofs....
Could they make a BETTER porro than the Nikon 8x32 SE that would blow away a Swarovision?

That is an excellent question.
The initial take would be that good roofs are well over 90% light transmission and the phase issue has been tamed, so what is the opportunity for blowing away a Swarovision?
I appreciate the new Nikon WX porros offer a superior wide angle view at a price, but optically they reportedly do not provide more sharpness or brightness than their much older high end Nikon predecessors.
Apparently the competition has moved from optical performance to ergonomics, robustness and focal range.

 

[[email protected]]

That is an excellent question.
The initial take would be that good roofs are well over 90% light transmission and the phase issue has been tamed, so what is the opportunity for blowing away a Swarovision?
I appreciate the new Nikon WX porros offer a superior wide angle view at a price, but optically they reportedly do not provide more sharpness or brightness than their much older high end Nikon predecessors.
Apparently the competition has moved from optical performance to ergonomics, robustness and focal range.

It seems there is always room for optical improvement though. The big three seem to continually improve their optics with the Noctivid, SF and Swarovision with a New Swarovision being developed as we speak being examples. New models are always coming out. The New Swarovski CL 8x30, Leica Noctivid 8x32, Zeiss Victory 8x25 and Leica's New Trinovid series are some examples. No new porro's though. The R&D is directed towards roofs. You can see where the market is going.

 

[jring]

I also vividly recall the stunned silence when I swapped my SEs with a mocking friend's alpha roof 8x32s - the superiority of the porros was obvious.

Hi,

the same has happened to me on various occasions with my SE 10x42. One instance was especially nice when a gentleman with a shiny Ultravid 10x50 was remarking that he used to own a cheap pair of Nikon porros before and his Ultravid was so much better.

I silently handed him my pair and said take your time... after some minutes of silent enjoyment his first comment was "Wow that's bright and contrasty - and bright and contrasty it was. Remember my SE is an early example from the 90s with coating technology 20 years behind the Leica.

I could have swapped it for the Ultravid on the spot, but I had to refuse... but I was happy to tell him the type and where to look for a used example...

Joachim

 

[jring]

Quote: Tell us your idea of a "latest-tech porro".

Imagine a compact-and-lightweight-as-possible, waterproof, (maybe) armored, center-focus, wide FOV, long eye relief instrument with superior optics and the latest coatings, precisely assembled, and beautiful. Is that too much to ask?

Hi,

Nikon SE

compact: well... not so much - non reversed porros are a always bit bulky - and reversed means small...
lightweight: check
waterproof: not quite, but Nikon is very conservative here - if it's not submersible, it's not waterproofed. Others would have called it splashproof. Mine have survived many days of german shietwetter and some stints in tropical rainforest without problems.
armoured: check
centerfocus: check
wide fov: not quite, but not narrow either. And the best field flattening in the market (maybe together with the Fujinon IF bricks)
long ER: check, but the rubber eyecups are a bit awkward to fold.
superior optics: check
latest coatings: not quite
precisely assembled: check - the famous Nikon focus feel - no rattle, no slop, no uneven movement, not break your fingers stiff - just silky smooth.
beautiful: a classic

I had hoped for a reissue of the SE series with upgraded coatings and twist up eyecups for Nikons anniversary which would have brought it even closer to your dream... but Nikon thought differently...

Joachim

 

[Neil G.]

Ok I'm gonna do it! I mean Hell, they are in the case....doing NOTHING.... I might as well!



I agree... Early in my hunting years there were a few Steiners. Earlier in the year at Magee Marsh...a few of the Leupold(pronounced LEE o pold! ) porros were present.

Sometimes I'll see a family with "some binoculars" as in one between them. Sometimes it will be a porro.

I'm not knocking porros. It's just that OVERALL current models that I have seen just aren't the binocular a good roof is for things that matter to ME. Show up with a group of birders....a porro just isn't gonna happen.

Ive owned a top end zeiss roof prism and viewed birds through top end leica and swarovski roof prisms.Excellent binoculars,of that there is no doubt.I'll keep my steiner porros:
1.compact and lightweight.
2.Fully waterproof.
3.solid build.
4.close focus.
5.individual and center focusing system.
6.a 30 year warranty
7.a 3 d image that makes looking through a roof prism a rarther flat experience.
I use these for birding so it happens for me.......its just as you say.....what matters to the individual.

Whatever you look through.......have a happy christmas and a fabulous new year everybody.

 

[Sancho]

Really for birding a Nikon 8x32 SE or Habicht 8x30 W are the best porro birding binoculars made and they still are not as good as the best alpha roofs like the Swarovision. Could they make a BETTER porro than the Nikon 8x32 SE that would blow away a Swarovision?

Hi Dennis. The guy who bought my SV8x32 loves them. I loved the ergonomics and slightly wider FOV. But I prefer the SE8x32, because I like the 3D, I find the colours a bit more vibrant/contrasty/saturated (not sure of my terminology here), and the flare control faultless. Lovely smooth focussing too (although I had no problem with the SV, and understand the Swaro focus-system has a bit more 'give' in one direction for good reason). I found the SV a bit 'pale' and very flary. But that might be something to do with typical lighting/cloud conditions at this latitude.
Could a better Porro be made? I've no idea, I don't really know about the technology. As regards light transmission, the SE has plenty (is the high transmission of modern expensive roofs necessary?). Coatings? Dunno. Maybe water-repellent or scratch-resistant, but that wouldn't make me buy a new pair. Waterproofing? The SE is pretty rainproof, the Habicht waterproof. Maybe I could be tempted if SE's were made with 8.0º FOV.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Dennis. The guy who bought my SV8x32 loves them. I loved the ergonomics and slightly wider FOV. But I prefer the SE8x32, because I like the 3D, I find the colours a bit more vibrant/contrasty/saturated (not sure of my terminology here), and the flare control faultless. Lovely smooth focussing too (although I had no problem with the SV, and understand the Swaro focus-system has a bit more 'give' in one direction for good reason). I found the SV a bit 'pale' and very flary. But that might be something to do with typical lighting/cloud conditions at this latitude.
Could a better Porro be made? I've no idea, I don't really know about the technology. As regards light transmission, the SE has plenty (is the high transmission of modern expensive roofs necessary?). Coatings? Dunno. Maybe water-repellent or scratch-resistant, but that wouldn't make me buy a new pair. Waterproofing? The SE is pretty rainproof, the Habicht waterproof. Maybe I could be tempted if SE's were made with 8.0º FOV.

Yes, in some ways the Nikon 8x32 SE is better than the SV 8x32 and vice versa. It all depends on what you want out of a binocular. I am thinking the Nikon 8x32 SE is the pinnacle of porro performance for a birder even though it lacks some of the modern conveniences of the newer roofs. It certainly is a bargain for the performance it delivers. The Nikon 8x30 EII which I prefer for the easier eye placement and bigger FOV is right up there also. How did you feel the SE compared to the SV in contrast? After comparing quite a few higher end roofs including my new Swarovski 8x30 CL to my Nikon 8x30 EII I think that is one area where the EII is a little weak. Some of the higher end roofs just have gorgeous contrast which I find addicting especially when looking into shadows.

 

[fleurviola]

Neil G. - which Steiner porro model are you keeping? Is that model still available? Thanks!

Quote:
Ive owned a top end zeiss roof prism and viewed birds through top end leica and swarovski roof prisms.Excellent binoculars,of that there is no doubt.I'll keep my steiner porros:
1.compact and lightweight.
2.Fully waterproof.
3.solid build.
4.close focus.
5.individual and center focusing system.
6.a 30 year warranty
7.a 3 d image that makes looking through a roof prism a rarther flat experience.
I use these for birding so it happens for me.......its just as you say.....what matters to the individual.

Whatever you look through.......have a happy christmas and a fabulous new year everybody.

 

[Pinewood]

Hello all,

Except for close focussing, which is almost a fetish,waterproff internal focussing, and a small package, there is no reason why a Porro could not incorporate optical features of an alpha roof glass. However, as others have pointed out, the market demands those advantages of the roof prism binoculars. In fact the Porro could be made with wider FOV true stereopsis and less chromatic aberration inherent in internal focussing. Of course the manufacturers are happy to reap the higher per unit profits of sophisticated roof prism binoculars
I think it may be the end of the line for what is in essence a late nineteenth century technology, which has been seriously improved over the twentieth century. I gather that the Canon IS binoculars are souped up Porros, with a distinctive advantage over most roof prism binoculars. In a certain sense the the Canon 10x42 LS is your alpha Porro.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur

 

[Neil G.]

Hi fleurviola.I use the steiner wildlife pro with the hd lenses.......some did'nt have these from what i've read.Unfortunately they were discontinued i believe.....probably due to the marketing men pushing roof prisms.
I'm not knocking roof prisms in any way......there are some fabulous roof prism nockers out there but for me the 3 d image i get from the steiners gives me a more pleasurable viewing experience......and they are plenty sharp and contrasty enough for birdwatching.

 

[Sancho]

Yes, in some ways the Nikon 8x32 SE is better than the SV 8x32 and vice versa.......Some of the higher end roofs just have gorgeous contrast which I find addicting especially when looking into shadows.

In one sense, for me it wasn't about 'porro v. roof'...the problem was, neither the SV not the Habicht passed the crucial 'Mountain Goat Test'!

 

[NDhunter]

In one sense, for me it wasn't about 'porro v. roof'...the problem was, neither the SV not the Habicht passed the crucial 'Mountain Goat Test'!

Sancho:

It is good to see you posting. What is the Mountain Goat Test ?

I also want you to post your famous signature of which I am fond of.

Jerry

 

[Sancho]

Sancho:

It is good to see you posting. What is the Mountain Goat Test ?

I also want you to post your famous signature of which I am fond of.

Jerry

Hi Jerry, happy new year to you and yours! Dennis posted a long time ago about seeing a lot of flare in some bino while looking up a hillside at some mountain goats. (I can't remember what that signature could have been...something inane or unoriginal, I'll warrant!)

 

[Sancho]

BTW Everybody....it's the weekend, we've all said our piece on roofs v. porros, so according to Established Birdforum Etiquette right about now is a good time to kick off a bino-argument! So who's gonna start?
(BTW Happy New Year, even if your bins are better than mine)

 

[[email protected]]

BTW Everybody....it's the weekend, we've all said our piece on roofs v. porros, so according to Established Birdforum Etiquette right about now is a good time to kick off a bino-argument! So who's gonna start?
(BTW Happy New Year, even if your bins are better than mine)

I must say you got my goat on that one, Sancho. The "Mountain Goat Test" invented by me and it was accidental involves taking a Habicht 8x30 W on a sunny day in a canyon like you have in our Rocky Mountains and placing yourself at the bottom of the canyon and then trying see something perched up above you. It doesn't necessarily have to be a "Mountain Goat" although that's what I was trying to see that day. The full FOV was flooded by veiling glare and there was no goat to be seen through the Habicht although the goat was still standing there because when I got the Canon 10x42 IS-L out I could see the goat. I loved the Habicht's on-axis gorgeous view but if it can't get my goat it has to go. So if you live in flat country you might be ok with the Habicht but forget it in our rather high mountains(!4,000 feet and better). That is a true story to the best of my recognition and I would be willing to subject myself to a lie detector that it happened. If anyone wants to go around about the goat let me know.

 

[WJC]

Hi,

Nikon SE

compact: well... not so much - non reversed porros are a always bit bulky - and reversed means small...
lightweight: check
waterproof: not quite, but Nikon is very conservative here - if it's not submersible, it's not waterproofed. Others would have called it splashproof. Mine have survived many days of german shietwetter and some stints in tropical rainforest without problems.
armoured: check
centerfocus: check
wide fov: not quite, but not narrow either. And the best field flattening in the market (maybe together with the Fujinon IF bricks)
long ER: check, but the rubber eyecups are a bit awkward to fold.
superior optics: check
latest coatings: not quite
precisely assembled: check - the famous Nikon focus feel - no rattle, no slop, no uneven movement, not break your fingers stiff - just silky smooth.
beautiful: a classic

I had hoped for a reissue of the SE series with upgraded coatings and twist up eyecups for Nikons anniversary which would have brought it even closer to your dream... but Nikon thought differently...

Joachim

Hi, Joachim:

Even with the addition of anti-phase shifting coatings, roof prism binoculars are hard pressed to match the performance of Porro prism instruments. But, once again perception becomes reality. I was fortunate to get the SE ... which is no more—a victim of consumer perception.

And what about those who insist on a bino that focuses 3.14159265359 ... inches from the nose? Why is it we don’t see posts about the quality of distant images lost by making “close focus” possible? With people always clamoring for the non-existent perfection one might think that would be a hot topic. And I don’t know of a bird prone to landing on one’s shoes. In optics one size does not fit all.

For me, it’s like the guy who bellyaches about why there are no “ONE POWER” binoculars. Has thinking completely become a lost art? :cat:

Bill

 

[dries1]

Porro

How about these DF 7X40s from the 70s, it provides a very nice wide field of view ~ 8.5 degrees with an apparent FOV of 60 degrees. I have two and still use and appreciate them, a great PORRO glass.

Andy W.

 

[WJC]

How about these DF 7X40s from the 70s, it provides a very nice wide field of view ~ 8.5 degrees with an apparent FOV of 60 degrees. I have two and still use and appreciate them, a great PORRO glass.

Andy W.

Hi, Andy:

They're frequently called "border glasses."

Bill

 

[Sancho]

The full FOV was flooded by veiling glare and there was no goat to be seen through the Habicht although the goat was still standing there because when I got the Canon 10x42 IS-L out I could see the goat.

I had almost the same experience once with two binos in challenging light, SV and SE, both 8x32. The SV showed so much veiling that I couldn't see the tree, the SE showed a Pied Flycatcher sitting therein with no glare. Same configuration, same exit pupils, same set of eyeballs. No goats though. There's a wild goat herd lives on some crags a few miles from my house, but none are as pretty as the one in your photo!

 

[[email protected]]

I had almost the same experience once with two binos in challenging light, SV and SE, both 8x32. The SV showed so much veiling that I couldn't see the tree, the SE showed a Pied Flycatcher sitting therein with no glare. Same configuration, same exit pupils, same set of eyeballs. No goats though. There's a wild goat herd lives on some crags a few miles from my house, but none are as pretty as the one in your photo!

I agree with you. Both the SE and EII are better at handling veiling glare than either the Habicht 8x30W or Swarovski SV 8x32. And I don't think it has anything to do with me being an "Old Goat".