Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (1 Viewer)

[Pariah]

As far as I am aware, there is no concrete proof that GSW's existed in Ireland as a breeding species. There is some archaeological evidence, regarding a bone (or bones) found at a pre-historic site which was Great spotted woodpecker.
However we cannot say for certain how that bone got there or if it is indicative of past breeding.

There has been a dramatic increase in records of Great Spotted Woodpecker of late, With several birds seen this spring (including 2 birds on off shore islands, apparently on migration). Colonization may be a reality in the future.

However I dont favor a re-introduction. Theres no concrete evidence that they were here in the first place. And it could therefore simply be an initial introduction.

Owen

 

[KnockerNorton]

There's also this assumption that whatever deforestation that took place was entirely anthropogenic. But the evidence from Scotland is that the southern uplands and west coast were largely deforested through a natural wetting of the climate coming in from the Atlantic. If this were also true in Ireland, then even if GSW were there in the past, their current absence may be entirely natural. Human deforestation would have just been hastening a natural event.

 

[Sancho]

Good points above. I'd like to see woodpeckers in Ireland but only for my own selfish reasons. Given the odd choices the Humans in Ireland have been making lately, I'd be just as happy to go and introduce myself into someplace where woodpeckers live. Like England. Or France.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Good points above. I'd like to see woodpeckers in Ireland but only for my own selfish reasons.

and that's why we've got grey squirrels, american signal crayfish and muntjac, and we're losing red squirrels, native crayfish and bluebells woods...

Given the odd choices the Humans in Ireland have been making lately, I'd be just as happy to go and introduce myself into someplace where woodpeckers live. Like England. Or France.

Funny, cos I'd prefer to live in a country where promises about having referenda on fundamental changes to our democratic rights are kept. Like ireland. Call me old-fashioned, but I like voting, especially when it comes to devolving powers to a demonstrably corrupt institution where i'll never have a say again.

 

[jurek]

I just want to point that NW France and Benelux are also very deforested and cultivated. Which reduces chances of any "natural" woodpecker, eagle owl etc. crossing to England or Ireland.

 

[Vogeljung]

If you look at reintroductions in general the trend has been to reintroduce birds of prey and other 'sexy' headline-grabbing birds. I can't see any evidence that the Golden Eagles, WT Eagles and Red Kites are being introduced to improve our ecosystem here. Smaller birds tend not to reintroduced with such gusto...

There are words in Irish Gaelic for woodpeckers and Gordon D'Arcy's book claims that bones were found at a site, so that to me woudl point towards their being here at some point in time.

 

[gymell]

Good points above. I'd like to see woodpeckers in Ireland but only for my own selfish reasons. Given the odd choices the Humans in Ireland have been making lately, I'd be just as happy to go and introduce myself into someplace where woodpeckers live. Like England. Or France.

Come on over to Minnesota. I've got 6 species of woodpecker in my back yard..

 

[KnockerNorton]

There are words in Irish Gaelic for woodpeckers and Gordon D'Arcy's book claims that bones were found at a site, so that to me woudl point towards their being here at some point in time.

But nobody knows what kind of bird the irish gaelic refers to. For all we know, it may refer to treecreeper or anything. Or it may have just been invented in the 16th century to translate English texts or literature, in the same way that Welsh words are being invented today.

I don't think there's any conclusive evidence re bones. Claims have also been made on here about holes in bog oaks, but there doesn't seem to be any academic papers on it.

And that all still assumes that any extinction was anthropogenic and not natural anyway.

 

[Pariah]

If you look at reintroductions in general the trend has been to reintroduce birds of prey and other 'sexy' headline-grabbing birds. I can't see any evidence that the Golden Eagles, WT Eagles and Red Kites are being introduced to improve our ecosystem here. Smaller birds tend not to reintroduced with such gusto...

Those 3 species were driven to extinction, within the recorded historical period, by direct human persecution, with the eagles disappearing at the beginning of the 20th century.

There is absolutely no evidence that Great Spotted Woodpecker ever BRED here. Some bones at an archaeological site, AT MOST, proves a single occurence. Not breeding. And with hunting and trade factored in, there is no way to say for sure that the bones dont relate to a hunted vagrant, or a traded corpse etc etc.

I personally find it very hard to believe that, even though bird recording was becoming very prevalent at the turn of the century, that some woodpeckers did not hang on in areas where there is still good natural growth, when birds such as woodlark WHERE being recorded well into the early part of the 20th century.

They were simply not here.

Owen

 

[Sancho]

and that's why we've got grey squirrels, american signal crayfish and muntjac, and we're losing red squirrels, native crayfish and bluebells woods...



Funny, cos I'd prefer to live in a country where promises about having referenda on fundamental changes to our democratic rights are kept. Like ireland. Call me old-fashioned, but I like voting, especially when it comes to devolving powers to a demonstrably corrupt institution where i'll never have a say again.

Point One: agreed. Point Two: I have to think about that one....I love democracy except when I lose...

 

[Jos Stratford]

Given the odd choices the Humans in Ireland have been making lately, I'd be just as happy to go and introduce myself into someplace where woodpeckers live. Like England. Or France.

Good choice of two countries, France voted the same way as Ireland and Britain probably would were the politicians to actually offer the peasants the chance to exercise democratic choice over whether to give up some of that democratic choice.

 

[Vogeljung]

The IWT believes that the reintroduction of the GSW would be a major pro-active conservation move for a number of different wildlife species e.g. pied flycatcher, redstart, red squirrel, pine marten and several tree-dwelling bat species as woodpeckers are the architects and landlords of the woodlands - providing homes for numerous creatures and as such are an essential keystone species.

Bats, in particular, would benefit greatly and the return of this bird would greatly enhance our woodlands for these ever decreasing animals. The IWT therefore proposes this project as one to benefit a number of mammal and bird species and not simply as a restoration of a single, lost species.

The presence of the great-spotted woodpecker also enhances the environment by introducing wood-rotting fungus to dead wood which helps crevices and hollows to develop. There is a mystery surrounding the absence from Ireland of the Noctule bat. This species is abundant in Britain and should occur here and may well have done so in the past. However, it may have become extinct along with the woodpecker due to the absence of hollows in which to roost. Old woodpecker holes are known to represent 85% of chosen roost sites of the noctule bat in Europe.

As we all know, Irish forests were decimated. There was 0.1% cover by the 19th century. The last of the woodpeckers (lesser-spotted) were shot out around 1802.

As we would hope to receive birds from the Welsh population - being the closest to our shores - a woodpecker expert from the Countryside Council for Wales has been contacted and asked to visit Ireland to assess the available habitat for the species.

Initially, prime locations would be: Killarney, Wicklow and Glenveigh National Parks, the Avoca Valley in Wicklow and the Lee Valley in Cork. All these sites hold substantial woodland cover. The general availability of dead wood is growing as it is now being left in-situ by Coillte etc.


So the IWT itself claims we even had Lessrer-Spotted Woodpeckers! :eek!:

 

[Pariah]

No Idea where they are getting that information.
As far as I am aware, and im open to correction, Its (lesser spotted) not even on the list of extinct irish species.
Sounds like dodgy research to me. Without concrete proof of prior breeding in recent historical times, there is no call for a "re-introduction", especially if it would count as an initial introduction.

Owen

 

[nialltkeogh]

Hi,

(As I haven't made an input into this thread yet I'm afraid I'll have to make my points in one long-winded post!! Apologies for repetition of previous posts!!!)

Following similar points made by Iolar and Owen... If GSWoodpecker did indeed occur here in the past (im not arguing if it did or didn't), it has been absent for too long a time to justify its re-introduction. It is effectively out of the Irish ecological loop.

The IWT believes that the reintroduction of the GSW would be a major pro-active conservation move for a number of different wildlife species e.g. pied flycatcher, redstart, red squirrel, pine marten and several tree-dwelling bat species as woodpeckers are the architects and landlords of the woodlands - providing homes for numerous creatures and as such are an essential keystone species.

Pine Martins seems to be doing well without them.

I doubt that extra holes in trees will provide extra benefit for Red Squirrels, it would equally benefit Grey Squirrel.

As for Redstart and Pied Flycatcher...both species are hanging on by a thread, especially the flycatcher given that I can only recall a handful of occurrences in breeding habitat since the 80's. I visited a well known Redstart site in Wicklow at the weekend and it seems that the NPWS staff are doing just as good a job at caring for the tree-nesting species as Woodpeckers might. There were plenty of nest-boxes about!

Its true that bats would benefit from increased number of roosting sites created by woodpeckers but this should not be used to justify their re-introduction. Bats are existing here without Woodpeckers as it is.

There is no reason why GSWoodpecker SHOULD be re-introduced but if they are making an attempt at natural re-colonisation then by all means let them at it.

There does seem to be some migration of GSW into Ireland as seen by records on Cape Clear and Great Saltee this year (but then again both these records were firsts for the islands). In recent years there has been an increase in post-breeding records throughout the country and I have heard of 2 sites where breeding is thought to have occurred.

As for the birds of prey, as some of the lads said before, they have only been recently removed from their niche and fully deserve an attempt to re-establish lost populations. The same could be said for Corn Bunting, Red-necked Phalarope and Black-necked Grebe (if at all possible).

Re-introductions are important in their own way in preserving biodiversity, but to be honest we all seem to be missing the most important aspect of conservation here.

IF WE DON'T PROTECT WHAT WE HAVE NOW IT WILL BE GONE IN THE FUTURE!!!!

Therefore it is my own opinion that the majority of conservation effort (in Ireland anyway) should be focused on preserving the habitats which exist today and restoring those which have been degraded. This will not only ensure that the chances of more species being lost will be reduced but it will also provide a better foundation upon which to carry out future re-introduction projects.

(Rant over!)
Regards,
Niall

 

[Pariah]

Well said Niall

 

[Vogeljung]

Hi,

(As I haven't made an input into this thread yet I'm afraid I'll have to make my points in one long-winded post!! Apologies for repetition of previous posts!!!)

Following similar points made by Iolar and Owen... If GSWoodpecker did indeed occur here in the past (im not arguing if it did or didn't), it has been absent for too long a time to justify its re-introduction. It is effectively out of the Irish ecological loop.



Pine Martins seems to be doing well without them.

I doubt that extra holes in trees will provide extra benefit for Red Squirrels, it would equally benefit Grey Squirrel.

As for Redstart and Pied Flycatcher...both species are hanging on by a thread, especially the flycatcher given that I can only recall a handful of occurrences in breeding habitat since the 80's. I visited a well known Redstart site in Wicklow at the weekend and it seems that the NPWS staff are doing just as good a job at caring for the tree-nesting species as Woodpeckers might. There were plenty of nest-boxes about!

Its true that bats would benefit from increased number of roosting sites created by woodpeckers but this should not be used to justify their re-introduction. Bats are existing here without Woodpeckers as it is.

There is no reason why GSWoodpecker SHOULD be re-introduced but if they are making an attempt at natural re-colonisation then by all means let them at it.

There does seem to be some migration of GSW into Ireland as seen by records on Cape Clear and Great Saltee this year (but then again both these records were firsts for the islands). In recent years there has been an increase in post-breeding records throughout the country and I have heard of 2 sites where breeding is thought to have occurred.

As for the birds of prey, as some of the lads said before, they have only been recently removed from their niche and fully deserve an attempt to re-establish lost populations. The same could be said for Corn Bunting, Red-necked Phalarope and Black-necked Grebe (if at all possible).

Re-introductions are important in their own way in preserving biodiversity, but to be honest we all seem to be missing the most important aspect of conservation here.

IF WE DON'T PROTECT WHAT WE HAVE NOW IT WILL BE GONE IN THE FUTURE!!!!

Therefore it is my own opinion that the majority of conservation effort (in Ireland anyway) should be focused on preserving the habitats which exist today and restoring those which have been degraded. This will not only ensure that the chances of more species being lost will be reduced but it will also provide a better foundation upon which to carry out future re-introduction projects.

(Rant over!)
Regards,
Niall

Whilst I concur with the majority of this post I can't understand the resistance to the IWT project. Why not reintroduce the GSW....the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

As part of a wider drive to reforest this treeless island the reintroduction of the GSW would IMO bring a range of ecological benefits and little if any disadvantages.

But with so much lack of enthusiasm for a reintroduction project I can see no other option for the GSW but to recolonise of its own accord.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I think the IWT needs to provide some facts to back up its assertions.

One good fact would be that species nesting in old woodpecker holes have very low breeding success - that's because they are the perfect size for nest-predating woodpeckers to enter. So the benefits to hole-nesting bird species are actually marginal or even detrimental (if they choose woodpecker holes over other crevices).

I'll make this point again, as it's worth repeating, and several posts have glossed over it - nobody knows what the original forest looked like, and what extent natural climate change resulted in its decrease.

This is very importabnt, because most people seem to assume that the 'wildwood' was some kind of blanket canopy cover. That's only one theory. Another equally weighty theory is that it was much more open and patchy, made up of groves in a grassland matrix. Nobody actually knows, yet people continue planting up areas with dense stands of trees as if 'closed caopy' were a given.

Scotland's forests went through a natural decline over the last few thousand years on the west coast and uplands, and many areas deforested naturally as a wetter climate took over. It is very probable that ireland was similarly affected, seeing as it is first landfall for the atlantic weather systems.

It is also unknown whether recent vagrant GSW are Scandinavian or British. It is also unknown how many brids are currently resident and where they came from (deliberate releases? breeding, or a few old vagrants?).

Lots and lots of questions still need to be answered before anyone starts setting woodpeckers free in ireland.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Whilst I concur with the majority of this post I can't understand the resistance to the IWT project. Why not reintroduce the GSW....the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

As part of a wider drive to reforest this treeless island the reintroduction of the GSW would IMO bring a range of ecological benefits and little if any disadvantages.

Do you actually *know* much about GSW ecology, and what they do, and what they eat, and their relationship with the cavity-nesting guild? Anyone who studies hole-nesting birds in Europe knows quite a lot about GSWs, and the relationship is not benign. Your assessment of the benefits and disadvantages is very simplistic. Where is the research to support the claims that Ireland is somehow missing out? Where are the comparisons between, say, Ireland and Britain on the ecology and survival of bats, birds and fungi? You're posting all this stuff as it's all received wisdom, but is any of it actually true? We need evidence to decide, because people started letting muntjac deer and grey squirrels loose over here on a hunch and a romantic whim, and look where we are. And now we've got eagle owls munching hen harriers too.

can you prove beyond doubt that GSW existed in ireland in the recent past (last 1000 years? last 2000 years? Since the ice melted?) and that their absence now is due to man? If so, please post links to the evidence, because nobody else has seen it! And these are two of the key internationally-agreed criteria that need to be ticked off before a reintroduction can go ahead. All we seem to have is vague nods to holes in bog oaks and bones from an unspecified date.

Islands have unique ecologies. People mess with them at their peril.

 

[Brosnabirder]

I'll make this point again, as it's worth repeating, and several posts have glossed over it - nobody knows what the original forest looked like, and what extent natural climate change resulted in its decrease.


Scotland's forests went through a natural decline over the last few thousand years on the west coast and uplands, and many areas deforested naturally as a wetter climate took over. It is very probable that ireland was similarly affected, seeing as it is first landfall for the atlantic weather systems.

I've butchered your post a little but scroll down this link for some information on this specific point. It is only a short piece but it backs up your argument somewhat. At least on upland (blanket) bogs it seems a wetter climate historically resulted in the formation of bog and the destruction of forests.
http://www.ipcc.ie/bogsform.html

 

[KnockerNorton]

I've butchered your post a little but scroll down this link for some information on this specific point. It is only a short piece but it backs up your argument somewhat. At least on upland (blanket) bogs it seems a wetter climate historically resulted in the formation of bog and the destruction of forests.
http://www.ipcc.ie/bogsform.html

It's not my argument, it's TC Smout's:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Nat...32948/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/026-2550077-5353227