Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (1 Viewer)

[KnockerNorton]

Chris Mead link as referenced above:

http://www.birdcare.com/bin/showsonb?great+spotted+woodpecker

It looks like GSW is recolonising Ireland under its own steam anyway without the assistance of a reintroduction programme.

No references given in that to the original source. So not reliable. It could just be reporting conjecture, we can't tell.

 

[Vogeljung]

No references given in that to the original source. So not reliable. It could just be reporting conjecture, we can't tell.

We can't tell either way, but I defer to Chris Mead's analysis.

As I say, all the evidence points towards the GSW taking up residence here of its own accord so the reintroduction question is, perhaps, redundant.

I choose to believe that the GSW was indeed once a resident on this island, albeit in the dim and distant past.

None of us know for certain, however :t:

 

[breffni]

A juvenile GS woodpecker was found a few days ago in Dublin - this must be an irish fledged bird. There has also been one or two records of juv birds being seen in September in Ireland. So it would seem that they may well already be naturally recolonising...

 

[pianoman]

That is exciting breffni - do you have any more info? That was somehow missed on BINS. Breeding woodpeckers? *swoon*

 

[KnockerNorton]

A juvenile GS woodpecker was found a few days ago in Dublin - this must be an irish fledged bird. There has also been one or two records of juv birds being seen in September in Ireland. So it would seem that they may well already be naturally recolonising...

that doesn't follow at all, I'm afraid. British juvs have been dispersing for the past month and are turning up everywhere....

Juvs being claimed in Sept can't be in juv plumage, as they've moulted by then.

 

[HH75]

Juvs being claimed in Sept can't be in juv plumage, as they've moulted by then.

The only Great Spotted Woodpecker I have seen in Ireland was in September 2005, and I can assure you that it still had a red crown. I can also assure you that it wasn't a male Lesser Spotted or a Middle Spotted.
Granted, I couldn't evaluate whether or not the bird had moulted any head/body feathers whatsoever, but it did have a red crown...

 

[KnockerNorton]

The only Great Spotted Woodpecker I have seen in Ireland was in September 2005, and I can assure you that it still had a red crown. I can also assure you that it wasn't a male Lesser Spotted or a Middle Spotted.
Granted, I couldn't evaluate whether or not the bird had moulted any head/body feathers whatsoever, but it did have a red crown...

edit, quite right re crown, just looked at BWP: body moult protracted, by Oct 1/4 to 3/4 of crown replaced. Soz.

Still no saying where they've come from though - around 200,000 roaming juvs bouncing around Britain vs 5-10 (generous??) in ireland? Dublin being coastal, and facing Britain, has to be a negative for the recent bird too.

 

[pianoman]

Could well be a wandering juvenile of course, but a strange place for it to turn up, as Brittas is quite a bit inland and not very heavily forested. Bird would have had to overfly the (admittedly not very high) Dublin mountains.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Could well be a wandering juvenile of course, but a strange place for it to turn up, as Brittas is quite a bit inland and not very heavily forested. Bird would have had to overfly the (admittedly not very high) Dublin mountains.

don't think it would be a problem, tbh. habitat shouldn't be used s much of a guide - in england they breed in farmland with scattered hedgerow trees and turn up in hedges quite often. Some territories seem to have literally 20 trees in them. they're not restricted to forest by any means.

 

[breffni]

My money is on a breeding pair in Brittas!

 

[KnockerNorton]

My money is on a breeding pair in Brittas!

wouldn't stand up in court, friend!

 

[breffni]

wouldn't stand up in court, friend!

Rubbish friend! There has been a regular stream of vagrants to Ireland over the years - it is inevitable that a pair will breed sooner or later. It is also inevitable that the powers that be will surpress it when it does/did occur!

 

[KnockerNorton]

Rubbish friend! There has been a regular stream of vagrants to Ireland over the years - it is inevitable that a pair will breed sooner or later. It is also inevitable that the powers that be will surpress it when it does/did occur!

maybe so, my good man, but that doesn't mean that your bird near Dublin has anything to do with it!

 

[breffni]

How can you be so sure Professor Norton?

 

[KnockerNorton]

How can you be so sure Professor Norton?

I'm not sure. But neither are you, and that's the point! You can't claim it's an Irish-born bird just because it's in Ireland. And seeing as there are no breeding records in Ireland (officially - unofficially it's much more entertaining!), and 200,000 juvs produced each year in nearby Britain, to claim that it "must be an irish fledged bird" is factually wrong.

Could be an Irish juv, but it's nowhere near enough evidence to make that claim. All you can say is that there is a juv in Ireland in late July. Them's the facts. Anything else is pure conjecture, and Prof Norton gives a black mark and 100 lines for that kind of malarky!

 

[Pariah]

A 2nd juvenile is now present in bray.
This new bit of evidence could go either way.
On one hand theres a slim chance that this bird is the same...or from the same brood.
Or it could be from another brood...in which case..just how many pairs are we expected to believe is out there all of a sudden.

On the other hand...if we are seeing a big dispersal of juvs from britain...this could be very supportive of that.

Hard call to make.

Irishbirding has the dates listed as being as far back as november for the brittas bird...in which case (assuming its not an error...which has happened with that organisation in the past) perhaps there has been a pair in that area for a while?

We cant deny that there has been a great deal of evidence for dispersal over the past year. 2 birds were seen on offshore islands this spring. 2 birds were present in dublin this spring, with others reported as far back as 2005. A pair were rumoured to have bred in co. Down some time ago.
And with other records from cavan and meath its quite likely that they ARE breeding.
But until someone nails down a nest site I would have to agree with the prof and say that we havent proven it.

So the big question now is...did these birds make it here naturally?....or were they released?

Owen

 

[breffni]

...to claim that it "must be an irish fledged bird" is factually wrong....

Below the BTO criteria for confirmed breeding:

DD Distraction-Display or injury feigning
UN Used Nest or eggshells found (occupied or laid within period of survey)
FL Recently FLedged young (nidicolous species) or downy young (nidifugous species). Careful consideration should be given to the likely provenance of any fledged juvenile capable of significant geographical movement. Evidence of dependency on adults (e.g. feeding) is helpful. Be cautious, even if the record comes from suitable habitat.
ON Adults entering or leaving nest-site in circumstances indicating Occupied Nest (including high nests or nest holes, the contents of which can not be seen) or adults seen incubating
FF Adult carrying Faecal sac or Food for young
NE Nest containing Eggs
NY Nest with Young seen or heard

However, as you say, it could be a recently fledged juv (at most six or seven weeks old) that decided to fly across the irish sea (there was no easterly gale so it wasn't blown over). But if recently fledged GWS do fly across the irish sea as part of their natal dispersion, then surely they would have colonised already? So although breeding may not be confirmed, given all the other evidence, it must be highly probable?

 

[pianoman]

I wonder do dispersing juvs stay where they've dispersed? In other words if a larger than average number of juvs dispersed to Ireland, would they increase the resident population (breeding or not)?

 

[KnockerNorton]

Fair enough - "must" may be a bit too strong, how about probable breeding?

Below the BTO criteria for confirmed breeding:

DD Distraction-Display or injury feigning
UN Used Nest or eggshells found (occupied or laid within period of survey)
FL Recently FLedged young (nidicolous species) or downy young (nidifugous species). Careful consideration should be given to the likely provenance of any fledged juvenile capable of significant geographical movement. Evidence of dependency on adults (e.g. feeding) is helpful. Be cautious, even if the record comes from suitable habitat.
ON Adults entering or leaving nest-site in circumstances indicating Occupied Nest (including high nests or nest holes, the contents of which can not be seen) or adults seen incubating
FF Adult carrying Faecal sac or Food for young
NE Nest containing Eggs
NY Nest with Young seen or heard

GSW fledged quite a while ago, way back in early-mid june, so any juv has had plenty of time to move. The key point about juvs is if they're dependent or not, i.e. being fed by an adult or giving begging calls. Otherwise, any old juv of any species could be construed as a local bird, which they're clearly not. Most juvs (of non-migratory species) make their biggest movement as soon as they're independent, in the first month or so of life, so a juv in Ireland in July really could have come from anywhere - Europe even.

I'm not sharp on irish geography - how close is the second juv to the first? If in the same area, how do they know it's a different bird?

Rumour I've heard, from people who'd know, is that a couple of pairs have been breeding for several years anyway. Not sure where though (in the Republic). But seeing as we might be witnessing a colonisation it's important that supposition isn't turned into fact (someone reports a juv, someone supposes it's a local bird, someone else repeats that as fact in print, and before you know it it's 'written in stone' with no evidence on provenance at all). Objective documentation is what's needed, the plain facts as known, not filling in the gaps by ourselves.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I wonder do dispersing juvs stay where they've dispersed? In other words if a larger than average number of juvs dispersed to Ireland, would they increase the resident population (breeding or not)?

hard to know, not many juvs get ringed before dispersing. In other sedentary woodland species, with a similar social org, such as Nuthatch and Marsh Tit (a bit), the juvs make their biggest movement as soon as they're feeding themselves, then find a wintering territory and sit on that from summer til spring. Some might keep moving if they can't find anywhere, or move again if what they've found turns out to be not very good. In spring a lot of them move again, especially if they haven't been joined by a mate. So you get 2 peaks of dispersal: summer ('autumn') and spring. There doesn't seem to be any movement back to the natal site in these species, and i can't imagine there will be in woodpeckers either - the aim of dispersing is to disperse the genes and prevent inbreeding, so dispersing back wouldn't be a good idea.

Plenty of sites in England see lots of GSW passing through, where they don't usually breed. I think I heard of one site in east Anglia that ringed about 30 passing through in a year, none of which were 'local' (as there aren't any locals). That kind of movement is masked in England, cos seeing a GSW isn't unusual, even on the coast. But in Ireland any dispersing birds that reached there would stick out like a sore thumb, even though they might have moved less distance than lots of British birds.

With regards the question, my guess would be that any GSW that wintered there would go looking for a mate in spring, and keep moving til they either found one (unlikely, seeing as there are so few) or died (likely).