Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (1 Viewer)

[Sancho]

Or maybe there's a conspiracy by British woodpeckers to confound the Irish, going like this: "Let's re-introduce ourselves surreptitiously...we won't drum, or display, we'll hide our nest-holes, adults keep out of view, and only juveniles go get the peanuts...huh? That'll be great fun....".

 

[breffni]

For confirmed breeding you need a conclusive breeding record but for possible or probable breeding, less than conclusive evidence is used - the criteria used bu the BTO are below - in the meantime, any other opinions on this bird? No evidence of breeding, possible, probable or confirmed?

Knocker reckons no evidence/possible breeding
Eanna reckons no evidence at all
Derek reckons confirmed
Breffni reckons probable/confirmed

Any other views out there?

______________________________________________

http://www.bto.org/birdatlas/taking_part/bevidence.htm

Breeding Evidence

All codes for Possible, Probable and Confirmed Breeding must relate to individuals in potentially
suitable nesting habitat.

Code F (Flying over) should only be used on Roving Records forms and not on Timed Tetrad Visits.

Non-breeding
F Flying over
M Species observed but suspected to be still on Migration
U Species observed but suspected to be sUmmering non-breeder

Possible breeder
H Species observed in breeding season in suitable nesting Habitat
S Singing male present (or breeding calls heard) in breeding season in suitable breeding habitat

Probable breeding
P Pair observed in suitable nesting habitat in breeding season
T Permanent Territory presumed through registration of territorial behaviour (song etc) on at least two different days a week or more at the same place or many individuals on one day
D Courtship and Display (judged to be in or near potential breeding habitat; be cautious with wildfowl)
N Visiting probable Nest site
A Agitated behaviour or anxiety calls from adults, suggesting probable presence of nest or young nearby
I Brood patch on adult examined in the hand, suggesting Incubation
B Nest Building or excavating nest-hole

Confirmed breeding
DD Distraction-Display or injury feigning
UN Used Nest or eggshells found (occupied or laid within period of survey)
FL Recently FLedged young (nidicolous species) or downy young (nidifugous species). Careful consideration should be given to the likely provenance of any fledged juvenile capable of significant geographical movement. Evidence of dependency on adults (e.g. feeding) is helpful. Be cautious, even if the record comes from suitable habitat.
ON Adults entering or leaving nest-site in circumstances indicating Occupied Nest (including high nests or nest holes, the contents of which can not be seen) or adults seen incubating
FF Adult carrying Faecal sac or Food for young
NE Nest containing Eggs
NY Nest with Young seen or heard

 

[Sancho]

Knocker reckons no evidence/possible breeding
Eanna reckons no evidence at all
Derek reckons confirmed
Breffni reckons probable/confirmed

Any other views out there?

______________________________________________

Correction...Eanna (aka Sancho) has absolutely no idea, and is happy on the fence. I'd love to think it's true, and I reckon it probably is, but the real evidence is being intentionally (and quite wisely) witheld. If I saw a juvenile on my peanut-feeder at any time of year I don't think I'd take it as evidence of breeding, though, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if anyone else did.

 

[KnockerNorton]

But Breffni - the recent Brittas birds do not fall into the BTO breeding codes at all. They are not recently-fledged juveniles (code FL), and there is no other suitable category. It isn't the breeding season (code H), they're not paired and there's no evidence of a nest. Ergo, they do not have a breeding code. They're just sightings of juveniles. I saw a juv Green Sandpiper on a pond in London the other day - should it have a breeding code FL?

 

[breffni]

Why are they not recently fledged juveniles?

 

[CAU]

There has been a significant movement of Greater Spotted Woodpeckers in Finland this summer. The start was on about July 12, when 19 migrants were seen from a single place in Eastern Finland. On the 16th of July 96 migrants were seen from another place, of which 14 were identified as 1cy birds and 31 as adults. The highest one day sum is from July 27, when 1270 birds were seen from one place. The direction of the movement was about NW in Eastern Finland (they arrived from Russia). On the west coast many birds arrived from the sea (i.e. probably from Sweden), with e.g. 166 migrating in Pori on July 28 (of which 15 fell as prey to gulls). On the same day about 100 birds were seen on a small island in the southwest archipelago about 40 km from the mainland and 12 km from the closest big islands.

Based on this a 1cy GSW in Ireland in late July doesn't necessarily originate from there...

 

[bitterntwisted]

Why are they not recently fledged juveniles?

Because we don't know how recently they fledged - see recent thread about moult of the red crown - it doesn't occur until many weeks or months after the birds could have dispersed many hundreds of kilometres.

Look again at the breeding code description:

FL Recently FLedged young (nidicolous species) or downy young (nidifugous species). Careful consideration should be given to the likely provenance of any fledged juvenile capable of significant geographical movement. Evidence of dependency on adults (e.g. feeding) is helpful. Be cautious, even if the record comes from suitable habitat.

If I saw a red-crowned bird on my July tetrad visit I certainly would not give it a code unless I had clear evidence of nesting, or had observed reliance on parental feeding, begging calls etc.

Graham

 

[KnockerNorton]

Why are they not recently fledged juveniles?

because they breed in May and fledge in early-mid June, so by the end of July they've been fledged for about 4-6 weeks and independent for around a 2-4 weeks, which is a long time for a post-fledging bird, and is the period when they generally cover the greatest distance of their lives.

 

[KnockerNorton]

There has been a significant movement of Greater Spotted Woodpeckers in Finland this summer. The start was on about July 12, when 19 migrants were seen from a single place in Eastern Finland. On the 16th of July 96 migrants were seen from another place, of which 14 were identified as 1cy birds and 31 as adults. The highest one day sum is from July 27, when 1270 birds were seen from one place. The direction of the movement was about NW in Eastern Finland (they arrived from Russia). On the west coast many birds arrived from the sea (i.e. probably from Sweden), with e.g. 166 migrating in Pori on July 28 (of which 15 fell as prey to gulls). On the same day about 100 birds were seen on a small island in the southwest archipelago about 40 km from the mainland and 12 km from the closest big islands.

Based on this a 1cy GSW in Ireland in late July doesn't necessarily originate from there...

which all adds another interesting dimension - we're assuming that these recent Irish birds are of the British race, whereas they could well be of the Scand race. We know that Scand birds reach the British Isles, and they're more irruptive anyway, but you can only reliably identify them in the hand. In Britain they are usually overlooked because they look just like our birds, but in Ireland they're clearly going to get noticed. A big movement in Scandinavia could well be the origin of the recent juvs in Ireland.

Their possible/probable origin just keeps getting further and further from your neck of the 'woods', breffni!

 

[Jos Stratford]

which all adds another interesting dimension - we're assuming that these recent Irish birds are of the British race, whereas they could well be of the Scand race.

Could be, but I'd put it as the least likely of the options - if two were to get to Ireland, you would expect records on the Scottish islands also, better watched and better placed to collect such birds.

Also, the dates of the Irish juveniles coincide with the absolute beginning of the Finnish records, I would expect a slight time lag before movements in northern Europe are reflected in western (as tends to be the case with Crossbills, Waxwings, etc).

However, I appreciate no one was trying to say that these birds actually were of Scandanavian, but opening the possibility that they could be ..to this I can't argue. And thus I also agree with the point of the discussion, the origin is unknown, local breeders, immigrants from Britain or arrivals from further afield.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Could be, but I'd put it as the least likely of the options - if two were to get to Ireland, you would expect records on the Scottish islands also, better watched and better placed to collect such birds.

there might well be records - hads anyone checked Shetland/Fair Isle records? GSW aren't that unusual there, I don't think.

Also, the dates of the Irish juveniles coincide with the absolute beginning of the Finnish records, I would expect a slight time lag before movements in northern Europe are reflected in western (as tends to be the case with Crossbills, Waxwings, etc).

true, although they could be from a closer population, eg Germany or Denmark. Or Britain...

 

[breffni]

because they breed in May and fledge in early-mid June, so by the end of July they've been fledged for about 4-6 weeks and independent for around a 2-4 weeks, which is a long time for a post-fledging bird, and is the period when they generally cover the greatest distance of their lives.

So they cover the greatest distance in their lives in July? I thought that they covered the greatest distance in the Autumn based on a previous post?

 

[breffni]

And thus I also agree with the point of the discussion, the origin is unknown, local breeders, immigrants from Britain or arrivals from further afield.

And probably unknowable at this point in time. However my opinion is still that these are very probably irish bred birds for the combination of reasons above:
- the regular occurance of adult GSWs in ireland in recent years
- the expansion of the UK population
- the presence of three juvs in Ireland at the present (the most recent found in Downpatrick)
- the fact that irish people are unfamiliar with the species, that there are few irish birders, and that GSW frequent areas that birders tend not to visit
- there was no strong easterly in july that might have blown juv birds across 100km of sea

But ultimately i find the argument a bit circular. Either they are migrants or irish bred. If they are migrants, then eventually the migrants will meet one another and breed, just as Great Spotted Woodperkers have done in the past in Ireland.

I guess we shall just have to wait and see - my money is firmly on breeding GSW in Ireland, but I might be wrong...

One question: I think i read somewhere that visiting bird feeders is learned behavior for GSW and not something juvs will do unless shown by their parents or other adults - anything in that?

 

[Jos Stratford]

- the fact that irish people are unfamiliar with the species,

I wouldn't have thought this an issue for a species so distinctive and immediately recognisable. It is one of the few birds that I would say almost all non-birders could put a name to (to the level of 'woodpecker')

- there was no strong easterly in july that might have blown juv birds across 100km of sea

Post-breeding movements/dispersal of juveniles does not require strong winds, I don't think a woodpecker in Ireland was 'blown over' but flew over

One question: I think i read somewhere that visiting bird feeders is learned behavior for GSW and not something juvs will do unless shown by their parents or other adults - anything in that?

False, I can say with reasonable confidence that woodpeckers at my feeders have never seen a feeder before. At one site, I stop providing food in the mid-summer months, restarting in July - juveniles have been first on the feeder, they might well be seeing other birds using the feeders, but not other woodpeckers.

 

[KnockerNorton]

So they cover the greatest distance in their lives in July? I thought that they covered the greatest distance in the Autumn based on a previous post?

juv dispersal is June/July, as it is for most single-brooded species (as they generally nest in May). Some keep moving throughout autumn, but many make an initial big leap and then stop. This is a general dispersal behaviour, and not restricted to woodpeckers.

'Autumn' is an arbitrary human construct. What you consider autumn may not be what i consider autumn, let alone the birds. Think of it in terms of life stages instead - breeding, independence, dispersal, settling, territoriality, breeding.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I wouldn't have thought this an issue for a species so distinctive and immediately recognisable. It is one of the few birds that I would say almost all non-birders could put a name to (to the level of 'woodpecker')

agree. I'm wondering if breffni has ever seen/heard one, to not realise how distinctive and obvious they are.

Post-breeding movements/dispersal of juveniles does not require strong winds, I don't think a woodpecker in Ireland was 'blown over' but flew over

yup!

False, I can say with reasonable confidence that woodpeckers at my feeders have never seen a feeder before. At one site, I stop providing food in the mid-summer months, restarting in July - juveniles have been first on the feeder, they might well be seeing other birds using the feeders, but not other woodpeckers.

juvs tend to be on feeders first as they're more bold (or at least some of them are), both because they tend to be hungrier, less wary through experience, and at the time when juvs are around the adults are skulking in a hormone-induced scaredy-cat phase because they're moulting. Moulting makes adults physiologically more timid, whereas juvs are not yet moulting much/at all.

breffni, your arguments are not conclusive, let alone persuasive, so why not let this one rest until proper evidence comes to light? It probably wont be long! But this 'filling in the bits inbetween the facts' is not my cup of tea.

 

[Sancho]

breffni, your arguments are not conclusive, let alone persuasive, so why not let this one rest until proper evidence comes to light? It probably wont be long! But this 'filling in the bits inbetween the facts' is not my cup of tea.

Be gentle with us, KN...we have so few breeding species that we can't sleep at night for anticipation of a new one....

 

[KnockerNorton]

I could almost hear the violins there, Sancho! LOL But with all of those new shiny EU motorways and roads, twitching the new ones will be a doddle! And Sarkhozy might bung you a few sacks of Black Woodpeckers, Crested Larks and Wallcreepers in return for a few more 'correct' votes from the nation's birders in a little while. I wouldn't put it past him to try!

 

[Jos Stratford]

And Sarkhozy might bung you a few sacks of Black Woodpeckers, Crested Larks and Wallcreepers in return for a few more 'correct' votes

Given that Dublin is the new residence of choice of 200,000 or so Lithuanians, plus no idea how many Polish et al, I am sure these are your most likely sources should you fancy a woodpecker or two - bung them a euro or two, or offer to pay Ryan Air's rip-off baggage fees, and you could have any or seven or eight species.

Click here for the woodpecker menu (the more desirable species might require a slight premium)

 

[KnockerNorton]

Given that Dublin is the new residence of choice of 200,000 or so Lithuanians, plus no idea how many Polish et al,

gotta be a worry for Ireland's angling tourism sector! They do wonderful things with specimen pike and bream in Poland (and Lithuania?), although sending a photo in to the Angling Times and popping it back in the lough/lake/river isn't one of them....