Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (2 Viewers)

[Jos Stratford]

gotta be a worry for Ireland's angling tourism sector!

Got to be good for Lithuanian tourism though - get rid of all the undesirables, not to worry where, and the country ain't too bad a place to be.

Can't comment a lot on the Pike - they certainly consider them a desirable dish, often see people by the roadside selling the massive thing they have just caught.

 

[Sancho]

Can't comment a lot on the Pike - they certainly consider them a desirable dish, often see people by the roadside selling the massive thing they have just caught.

3LOL, KN and JS! Are you serious about the pike? I always thought they were indedible for humans....such belief saved the life of the only one I ever caught.....(well, not entirely on my own...it was a joint effort with some rural cousins). As for free woodpeckers from Sarkhozy, I rather believe he'd have us boiled in oil first...

 

[KnockerNorton]

3LOL, KN and JS! Are you serious about the pike? I always thought they were indedible for humans....such belief saved the life of the only one I ever caught.....(well, not entirely on my own...it was a joint effort with some rural cousins).

they're absolutely fantastic, although the bones are a bit fiddly.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Are you serious about the pike? I always thought they were indedible for humans

For sale in all the local supermarkets ...and it is one of the more expensive fish!!! Price approximately 5 euro a kilogram against, for example, 4 euro for cod.

 

[breffni]

False, I can say with reasonable confidence that woodpeckers at my feeders have never seen a feeder before. At one site, I stop providing food in the mid-summer months, restarting in July - juveniles have been first on the feeder, they might well be seeing other birds using the feeders, but not other woodpeckers.

According to this item from several GWS experts at the BTO "An examination of the observations revealed a very interesting pattern in how young woodpeckers used garden feeding stations. During the early part of the summer young birds tended to be accompanied by one or other of their parents but, as the season progressed, the youngsters were more likely to arrive unaccompanied." (http://www.bto.org/gbw/PDFs/BT48_8-9.pdf) This observation is based on 6162 reports giving it strong statistical validity. This would appear to directly contradict your comment Jos?

 

[KnockerNorton]

According to this item from several GWS experts at the BTO "An examination of the observations revealed a very interesting pattern in how young woodpeckers used garden feeding stations. During the early part of the summer young birds tended to be accompanied by one or other of their parents but, as the season progressed, the youngsters were more likely to arrive unaccompanied." (http://www.bto.org/gbw/PDFs/BT48_8-9.pdf) This observation is based on 6162 reports giving it strong statistical validity. This would appear to directly contradict your comment Jos?

implying? Proving? What exactly? what's your point?

 

[Jos Stratford]

During the early part of the summer young birds tended to be accompanied by one or other of their parents but, as the season progressed, the youngsters were more likely to arrive unaccompanied."

This would appear to directly contradict your comment Jos?

How exactly does that contradict my comment?

I have two feeding stations, about 100 km apart incidently, one I provide food all summer (site a), the other I stop and only re-establish in July/August (site b).

At site a, woodpeckers are all year, adults visit throughout the breeding station and as soon as the young fledge they accompany the parents to the feeders, ie exactly as in the quote above, but hardly unexpected as the woodpeckers are still dependent on the adults at this stage and are simply following their parents (in exactly the same way as all the Great Tits, etc arrive with juveniles.)

At site b, as stated no summer feeding occurs, thus woodpeckers do not use the feeders until they are re-established in July/August, by which time the juveniles have stopped following their parents and begging for food every second. At this site, juveniles can appear at the feeders before the adults (and without adults), thus will not have learnt or 'been shown' them by adult birds.


Your question was 'is it learned behaviour, do they need to be shown by their parents' - the above BTO quote does not address this, it simply reflects that early in the season, young birds tend to be dependent on adults (and so with them), later they are not. I agree with this, I believe my observations do not contradict the quote, but supplement it.

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

Two juvenile Great Spotted Woodpeckers were seen at different feeders over the past couple of days in Co.Down Northern Ireland.

Derek

 

[liverpool_bob]

Two juvenile Great Spotted Woodpeckers were seen at different feeders over the past couple of days in Co.Down Northern Ireland.

Derek

I don't think I've read the whole thread and it's getting rather lengthy now, so do forgive me... are there records of drumming birds in spring at all? If there are juveniles appearing at various locations I'd find it curious there were no adults discovered in spring - they really do create a racket!

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

Hello Bob,
The juveniles were present in the same area that they have been suspected of breeding in for the past two years. I don't know the full facts so will not comment here but i personally have seen a picture of a juvenile taken at a feeder.(the picture was taken by a woman through the window of her kitchen!)
The problem for birders here is that the Woodpeckers have chosen to take up residence in an area with no general access. It is a huge estate and having visited the place it is no real surprise that the Woodpeckers are in this area as it is as close Woodpecker heaven as you could wish for. Lots of birders have scouted round the edge of the estate without any real success.
Other adults have been seen/claimed at other forests nearby and it might well be that a small population has established itself in Co.Down.

Derek

 

[breffni]

implying? Proving? What exactly? what's your point?

Just a question for you GWS experts Knocker - I'm trying to understand GWS ecology and according to Jos, GWS juvs go to feeders without any help from adults in finding them but the BTO piece says that recently fledged birds are usually accompanied by adults. Your own comment: "juvs tend to be on feeders first as they're more bold (or at least some of them are), both because they tend to be hungrier, less wary through experience, and at the time when juvs are around the adults are skulking in a hormone-induced scaredy-cat phase because they're moulting." would also seem to be at odds with the piece...

 

[Jos Stratford]

according to Jos, GWS juvs go to feeders without any help from adults in finding them but the BTO piece says that recently fledged birds are usually accompanied by adults. ...

Please read my previous reply (post 367).



Incidently, if you take the view the adults must show them the feeders, how come nobody in Ireland is seeing the adults with them ?

 

[breffni]

Incidently, if you take the view the adults must show them the feeders, how come nobody in Ireland is seeing the adults with them ?

I dont know - I dont take any view on this - i'm just reading the BTO piece which tentatively says "Could it be that the parents were leading their young to a suitable food source and, as the young became more independent, they were then left to visit on their own?"

Nice web site by the way!

 

[breffni]

juv dispersal is June/July, as it is for most single-brooded species (as they generally nest in May). Some keep moving throughout autumn, but many make an initial big leap and then stop. This is a general dispersal behaviour, and not restricted to woodpeckers.

'Autumn' is an arbitrary human construct. What you consider autumn may not be what i consider autumn, let alone the birds. Think of it in terms of life stages instead - breeding, independence, dispersal, settling, territoriality, breeding.

I'm referringthe to the arbitrary human construct that starts on the 1st September and ends on the 31st November. My understanding from your previous posts is that GWS juvs do some dispersal when they become independent but the greatest distances are during the human construct referred to above - is this right?

Dont be such a knocker, knocker - only tryng to get the full picture!

 

[breffni]

I wouldn't have thought this an issue for a species so distinctive and immediately recognisable. It is one of the few birds that I would say almost all non-birders could put a name to (to the level of 'woodpecker')

agree. I'm wondering if breffni has ever seen/heard one, to not realise how distinctive and obvious they are.

You guys are too kind! I have never seen one in Ireland, though i once twitched one. Like many other birders on that day, I dipped despite eight hours searching (got a hawfinch though). A single GWS in an extensive area of woodland can be very elusive. Note that pretty much all the birds turning up now are being discovered because they are coming to feeders. If there was a single pair breeding in a remote section of forest, they could go unnoticed for years...

 

[breffni]

I don't think I've read the whole thread and it's getting rather lengthy now, so do forgive me... are there records of drumming birds in spring at all? If there are juveniles appearing at various locations I'd find it curious there were no adults discovered in spring - they really do create a racket!

Adult birds have been reported present in the general vicinity of the Brittas bird - reports are not that specific.

 

[Jos Stratford]

You guys are too kind!

I'm not putting you down, I was merely countering that you said most persons in Ireland wouldn't know this species.


Is it only juveniles appearing at feeders at present? (how many? Four or five?) That strikes me as interesting and would make me wonder as to their origin? If adults are breeding locally, why aren't they coming to the feeders too?

 

[KnockerNorton]

Just a question for you GWS experts Knocker - I'm trying to understand GWS ecology and according to Jos, GWS juvs go to feeders without any help from adults in finding them but the BTO piece says that recently fledged birds are usually accompanied by adults. Your own comment: "juvs tend to be on feeders first as they're more bold (or at least some of them are), both because they tend to be hungrier, less wary through experience, and at the time when juvs are around the adults are skulking in a hormone-induced scaredy-cat phase because they're moulting." would also seem to be at odds with the piece...

It's not at odds at all. In fact, it's perfectly in tune. For a start, there is no indication AT ALL that the juvs visiting with parents are the same ones that later come on their own. My guess would be that they're not. Dependent juvs follow the adults to feeders. The juvs then disperse and the adults go away and moult, and new juvs disperse in/through and use the feeders on their own, taking advantage of the lull in adult activity.

With the various tits that I ring, the birds accompanying adults in early June, and being fed at the feeders, are not the same juvs that are at the feeders a few weeks later. This is all well-known stuff. Read any of the papers by Greenwood etc on dispersal, or Mattysen on Nuthatches.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I'm referringthe to the arbitrary human construct that starts on the 1st September and ends on the 31st November. My understanding from your previous posts is that GWS juvs do some dispersal when they become independent but the greatest distances are during the human construct referred to above - is this right?

No, that's not what i said.

 

[Sancho]

I don't mean to be jumping from one side of the fence to the other here (I'm still sat right on top of it), but I wonder if in fact it would be quite easy for GSW to go totally unnoticed, as Breffni suggests. The low (human) population density in Ireland is one thing. Also, a lot (most?) of the ideal habitat for GSW in Ireland is in enclosed private demesnes, as DC mentions is the case in Co. Down. Walkers in Ireland tend to walk in the hills/upland bogs, not in woods (there being so few). Drumming might go unnoticed in any case, to non-birders it might sound like there's tree-felling or whatever going on. I once heard it said that there are only about 400 experienced birders in Ireland (not sure if that referred to the whole island or just to Ireland South). Example: nightjar is an extremely rare breeding species, but a pair that nested in the southeast recently for 5 consecutive years went completely unnoticed, until the final year, even though the area was well-frequented by birders, walkers, butterfly and dragonfly enthusiasts, etc., and the nightjars were nesting only a few metres from the road and entrance to the area. (Okay, I know they're nocturnal and GSW aren't, but they're a hell of a lot more vociferous). It's all a bit of a mystery. On the other hand, the reports above of large GSW movements in NE Europe make one wonder. The bottom line is, none of us know for sure. Yet. And the speculation will continue if/until a breeding pair is found/announced and a "positive" can be proven.