Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (2 Viewers)

[liverpool_bob]

The bottom line is, none of us know for sure. Yet. And the speculation will continue if/until a breeding pair is found/announced and a "positive" can be proven.

In the following link, does the accepted status refer to the ID or breeding?
IrishBirding

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

In the following link, does the accepted status refer to the ID or breeding?

To the id only.

Derek

 

[KnockerNorton]

Again, I'm in little/no doubt that they've been breeding in recent years. But to try and link these recent juvs to it all is useless. You simply can't. It's a meaningless exercise, because there are too many strong possibilities that you cannot rule out.

Re overlooking them - yes, entirely possible, but if birders have been scoriung the periphery as has been said, then they would almost certainly have seen or heard something if they were there.

 

[breffni]

No, that's not what i said.

Well forgive my stupidity knocker

because there isn't much info. They probably disperse about 2-4 weeks after fledging. Only 17 pulli have ever been recovered, up to 54 km away (only 3 moved >20km), but this doesn't mean much as the sample is so small. We know that most birds of other species don't disperse far (most under 20km for other sedentary species) but some individuals of each species do make much bigger movements. Juv GSW in autumn have been recorded moving >150km, but this is already after post-juv dispersal.

above post seems to refer to two groups of GWS - one dispersing to a maximum of 54 km and the other over 150km, these latter during the human construct that starts on the 1st spetember and finishes on the 31st november.

What are these two groups you are referring to?

 

[KnockerNorton]

Well forgive my stupidity knocker

quit the childish comments please.

just read the posts again, it's pretty clear. Or look up a few of the authors I mentioned. This stuff isn't new.

 

[bitterntwisted]

I'm referringthe to the arbitrary human construct that starts on the 1st September and ends on the 31st November.

That's our arbitrary human construct - the meteorological Autumn. (although I prefer the astronomical) You've got your own, starting on Lughnasadh, reckoned by insolation. Perhaps that's what's confusing the woodpeckers in dispersing?

Graham

 

[bitterntwisted]

Okay, I know they're nocturnal and GSW aren't, but they're a hell of a lot more vociferous

I'm not sure they are, Sancho. A 'kicking' GSW will perch prominently on one of the highest trees in the area, making a very loud, very distinctive call which carries a good 200 yards. And they give the same loud call while flying in a distinctive, bounding, multicoloured way. OK, a nightjar's churring carries a long way on a still night, but GSW are still very easy birds to detect.

Graham

 

[breffni]

quit the childish comments please.

just read the posts again, it's pretty clear. Or look up a few of the authors I mentioned. This stuff isn't new.

My interpretation is that when you say "Only 17 pulli have ever been recovered, up to 54 km away (only 3 moved >20km)," you are referring to summer birds and when you say "Juv GSW in autumn have been recorded moving >150km, but this is already after post-juv dispersal." you are referring to autumn birds. Is that correct?

 

[breffni]

That's our arbitrary human construct

Hi Graham, That was my assumption until KN's post, after which i felt the necessity to clarify which human construct i was referring - maybe you can clarify the question of juv GWS dispersal? My understanding is that they disperse short distances after they leave their parents (july/aug), then in the autumn (sept - nov) they disperse much greater distances (based on limited ringing recoveries). Do you know if this is correct? (alas i don't possess a copy of the BWP myself...)
Breffni

 

[KnockerNorton]

My interpretation is that when you say "Only 17 pulli have ever been recovered, up to 54 km away (only 3 moved >20km)," you are referring to summer birds and when you say "Juv GSW in autumn have been recorded moving >150km, but this is already after post-juv dispersal." you are referring to autumn birds. Is that correct?

One more time: GSW leave their nest in June. For a few weeks they are dependent on their parents and follow them around. Not many get ringed by this point, and only 17 ringed by this stage (in May/June) have ever been recovered. The furthest went 54 km, but that doesn't mean much because it's only out of 17. In late June the juvs disperse, and we know from other species that this is probably the longest movement they make. We also know (or can strongly imply) that many stop and settle quickly (a few days/weeks), but others keep moving into July, August and beyond. Some of these might be from the Continent, and have a different irruptive behaviour. These birds already on the move are ringed in greater numbers, because more pass through a set point (eg a Bird Obs) than settled birds (which wont pass through, cos they're settled smewhere else). Some of these moving birds have been found >150 km away from where they were ringed. Even though these birds that keep moving may be in the minority, they are conversely more likely to be ringed and recaught, because ringing effort is concentrated in areas where woodpeckers pass through and are easier to catch (gardens, coasts) and not in areas where woodpeckers settle and are harder to catch (woods, farmland). You will also get more woodpeckers passing through a coastal headland than you will sat in a settled woodland territory, so stochastically the ringing recoveries will be biased towards these minority wandering birds, and away from the majority settled birds.

So, to recap, juvs disperse in June. Some (probably most) settle quickly in June/July, others keep moving beyond July. Some irruptive birds may pop over from the continent during this period and roam around a bit.

Forget about 'summer', forget about 'autumn'. Try thinking about it on a woodpecker's timetable.

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

Again, I'm in little/no doubt that they've been breeding in recent years. But to try and link these recent juvs to it all is useless. You simply can't. It's a meaningless exercise, because there are too many strong possibilities that you cannot rule out.

I take a different view from you. I think we have to link all these recent sightings especially the Co.Down birds. The only other possibility to birds breeding both in Co.Down and Dublin is that birds either from the UK or the Continent are arriving on a broad front in Ireland in July. There is absolutely no evidence for this either historical or recent. I do keep an open mind however. I think its best to work on the assumption that there is a small breeding population of GSWoodpeckers.

As has been said there are probably only 400 or so active birders in Ireland. Most of those are in Southern Ireland and here in Northern Ireland you would be lucky to have 50 or so active birders at any one time. We have had a large increase in reports of GSWoodpeckers reported to Flightline the past 3 years from members of the public. Virtually all have been brief visitors to peoples gardens.We have no reason to disbelieve any of these sightings.
Most have been in a 30 mile radius of the suspected breeding site. Many of the sightings have been followed up, i personally have spent hours and hours standing in gardens and tramping round forests. But believe me trying to twitch a single Woodpecker in a large forest is no easy job. As i have said the breeding site is a large area with no access. Birds have been heard from the road several times during the breeding season. All we need is positive proof that the birds are breeding and possibly over a wider area than we think. I believe it will not be long before this proof is obtained.

Derek

 

[Pariah]

400?
You meant 40 right?

Owen

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

Depends what you mean by active birders Owen! I think when you consider many guys have family's etc and get out when they can there probably are 400 or so. Or put it another way there are 400 who would know the difference between a GSWoodpecker and a Green Woodpecker without having to look up a book.

Derek

 

[Pariah]

I would be surprised if there was half that number Derek.
If you could get 150 birders names on a list I would genuinely be surprised.
I did a quick tally and barely got over a hundred.(im undoubtedly missing a few...maybe as much as 20-30 names...but not 300)
From looking at it I would class just about 60 of those as "active".


Owen

 

[pianoman]

To get back to the drumming for a second, Drumming was reported in April this year (see this post: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1171932&highlight=drumming#post1171932)

Another thing, don't know if this is relevant:

Over the past 10 years, House Sparrows were recolonising my local area, after their decline the previous decade, from a stronghold in Bray about 3km away. Each year, about this time, juveniles would disperse from the breeding area and appear in my garden for a couple of weeks. They would then shrink back for the rest of the year.

The following year would be a repeat performance except that the breeding area was expanded a little, maybe by a radius of 500 metres

Finally, as of two years ago, breeding reached my area. The sparrows now stay in the garden year-round.

I wonder if this is a normal means of dispersal for expanding resident birds, and can it be applied to GSW? Are the juvs being seen in Ireland this year indicators of an expanding population in Britain which may or may not reach our shores, or are the distances too great?

thanks

A

 

[KnockerNorton]

I think we have to link all these recent sightings especially the Co.Down birds.

no, we don't *have* to imo. And if we do, we're making it up, because we don't know if it's true. It may well be true, but it's much too early to be speculating like that and joining up the dots ourselves. Anyone is free to do so if they like, but they're making up a story by linking phenomena that may have no relationship at all. Why not just record the facts as known (bird here, bird there) and leave it there? why go that step further and speculate? What's the point?

The only other possibility to birds breeding both in Co.Down and Dublin is that birds either from the UK or the Continent are arriving on a broad front in Ireland in July. There is absolutely no evidence for this either historical or recent.

See my earlier post on the unprecedented situation with GSW in Britain right now. They've gone through the roof in the past 10 yrs. There is no evidence against it either, it has to be said, as there is no evidence full-stop!

I do keep an open mind however. I think its best to work on the assumption that there is a small breeding population of GSWoodpeckers.

best how? why is it best to link these juvs to the couple of pairs elsewhere? who benefits?

i personally have spent hours and hours standing in gardens and tramping round forests. But believe me trying to twitch a single Woodpecker in a large forest is no easy job.

it is with a sound lure!

 

[KnockerNorton]

I would be surprised if there was half that number Derek.
If you could get 150 birders names on a list I would genuinely be surprised.
I did a quick tally and barely got over a hundred.(im undoubtedly missing a few...maybe as much as 20-30 names...but not 300)
From looking at it I would class just about 60 of those as "active".


Owen

Is there not an Irish Lee Evans with a database of names, dates and 'competences'?!

There looks to be many more than 60 atlas squares covered for Ireland though http://blx1.bto.org/atlas-results/tetrad-coverage.html - or are you just counting the Republic and not Northern Ireland?

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

As i said i take a different point of view to you. I am 100% sticking to the facts. We are recording all records of GSWoodpeckers seen in Northern Ireland. Most of the records come from one general area. I think it is safe to speculate that a pair or pairs may well be breeding in that area. Once again two juveniles have been seen in that area during July. I think once again it is safe to assume that they probably bred in this area again this year. This is not wild specultion but a considered opion based on the situation on the ground.

Your evidence is of little relevence except to show where our birds maybe originated from.

The alternative is to assume there are no breeding woodpeckers. Whats the point in that. I am on saying i believe there is a small population, maybe one pair maybe two or three breeding in Co.Down.

I don't use tape lures. Wouldn't even think of it. Where did i say on here that i haven't seen or heard Woodpeckers in this area?

Derek

 

[bitterntwisted]

Hi Graham, That was my assumption until KN's post, after which i felt the necessity to clarify which human construct i was referring - maybe you can clarify the question of juv GWS dispersal?

Sorry, no, I was making an arcane point that the traditional dates of the seasons are different in Ireland than in England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season#Reckoning), and a poor joke that this might confuse dispersing woodpeckers.

Graham

 

[DEREK CHARLES]

Is there not an Irish Lee Evans with a database of names, dates and 'competences'?!

There looks to be many more than 60 atlas squares covered for Ireland though http://blx1.bto.org/atlas-results/tetrad-coverage.html - or are you just counting the Republic and not Northern Ireland?

No! Although i am sure Lee has a list of Irish birders as well

Derek