Wolf-watching nr. Utrecht?! (2 Viewers)

[katastrofa]

Calling Xenospiza a liar isn't a good look, but at least have the courtesy to ask him yourself.

Not calling anyone a liar, it's a natural question to ask in such a discussion.

In Dutch:

DNA-onderzoek bevestigt: wolf bij incident 31 juli in Austerlitz

DNA-onderzoek op de kleding van het jonge kind dat betrokken was bij het incident op 31 juli in het bosgebied van Austerlitz, heeft bevestigd dat er een wolf betrokken is geweest.

www.provincie-utrecht.nl

Thanks. I'm wondering what is the precision of this test, given the existence of wolf-dog hybrids in Europe.

Though protected on paper in Poland, they are still frequently shot/snared, eg of 16 individuals that were fitted with GPS collars between 2014 and 2020, six were shot and three snared. Many records of illegal shooting each year - result is effectively the same as legal quota killing.

That's true Pomimo ochrony wilki w Polsce są intensywnie zabijane

So yes, if there's evidence that a particular wolf attacked a human, it's better to shoot it to protect humans and the rest of the wolf population.

 

[Jos Stratford]

That's true Pomimo ochrony wilki w Polsce są intensywnie zabijane

So yes, if there's evidence that a particular wolf attacked a human, it's better to shoot it to protect humans and the rest of the wolf population.

I think your summary here underestimates it a little. Permits to legally kill a wolf can be issued in Poland if evidence of significant livestock killing or danger to people, but the illegal shooting is over and above this, ie not related to evidence.

 

[Trinovid]

I'm wondering what is the precision of this test, given the existence of wolf-dog hybrids in Europe.

Good question, and I wonder if anyone can weigh in on the accuracy of the testing used.

 

[katastrofa]

I think your summary here underestimates it a little. Permits to legally kill a wolf can be issued in Poland if evidence of significant livestock killing or danger to people, but the illegal shooting is over and above this, ie not related to evidence.

My reply was a normative statement, not a summary of the sad situation with poaching in Poland.

 

[Trinovid]

...if there's evidence that a particular wolf attacked a human, it's better to shoot it to protect humans and the rest of the wolf population.

I've shot near the wolves at a long distance, one time ever to scare them off, as my friend's dog was running towards them. Other than that I've never wanted to shoot one, but do understand why my friend did, as it had chased his dog into the house, then refused to go away, even with him standing on the porch.
The two dogs were both German Shepherd types and both instances were a few years apart, and I still enjoy hearing wolf calls and finding their tracks in the snow.

 

[Jos Stratford]

My reply was a normative statement, not a summary of the sad situation with poaching in Poland.

Thus, back to a few posts earlier, explains why wolves in Poland (and Lithuania where I live, legal hunting allowed) have good reason to remain more cautious than in the Netherlands

 

[Ribbon]

Thanks. I'm wondering what is the precision of this test, given the existence of wolf-dog hybrids in Europe.

I happen to live a few doors next to an ecologist who's very involved in the Dutch wolf discussion. I'm not naming the guy on his request, so you have to take my word on this. I asked him about hybrids:

There are extremely few cases of hybrids in Western Europe. Those cases (three documented, in Germany) were declared 'unwanted' and got culled because they wanted to keep wild wolves genetically pure.
Of all (suspected) cases of attacks by wolves in Western Europe DNA samples are taken. With those samples it can also be made clear who the parents of that wolf were. In almost every case this leads to a known pack who's DNA is already in the database. In the other cases it leads to the discovery of a new unknown pack. If one of the parents happens to be a dog, that will be reported immediatly, but that never happened.
What did occur is that it proved to be a 100% genetically pure dog. Even Saarloos Wolfdog and Czech Wolfdog do not have wolf(like) DNA, so these dogs will also not be mistaken for wolves if DNA samples are collected.

 

[Xenospiza]

Thanks Ribbon, that was my understanding as well, having read 100s of posts and reports on wolves in the Netherlands and Germany.

 

[jurek]

In classical reports about the compilation of real and alleged wolf attacks worldwide, the first recommendation was to keep wolves wild, not to approach them or make them lose their ingrained fear of humans. It seems that this has not been followed in the Netherlands, with large number of tourists photographing and following wolves. The Netherlands is known to have no hunting and extremely tame wildlife, with red deer calves suckling their mothers few meters from tourists and so on. But in case of wolves, it is not the good idea.

I don't want to comments on this case more, because I cannot browse through the full online information and don't want to rely on selective reports.

 

[T.O.]

In classical reports about the compilation of real and alleged wolf attacks worldwide, the first recommendation was to keep wolves wild, not to approach them or make them lose their ingrained fear of humans. It seems that this has not been followed in the Netherlands, with large number of tourists photographing and following wolves. The Netherlands is known to have no hunting and extremely tame wildlife, with red deer calves suckling their mothers few meters from tourists and so on. But in case of wolves, it is not the good idea.

I don't want to comments on this case more, because I cannot browse through the full online information and don't want to rely on selective reports.

Not sure which country you are talking about, but in the whole range of Dutch wolves there is a lot of hunting ("population management") on red deer, wild boar and to a lesser extent roe deer. Most wildlife is not tame. You cannot equate one problem wolf that was widely followed (and who is already dead), with how things supposedly run in a country of which you know hardly anything.

The Netherlands is unique in having wolves living is such densely populated areas, but most of the 10+ packs aren't creating any notable problems (except to farmers who did not protect their animals properly). We also have governments who apparently fail to follow their own protocols and don't take much action....

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

There are extremely few cases of hybrids in Western Europe. Those cases (three documented, in Germany) were declared 'unwanted' and got culled because they wanted to keep wild wolves genetically pure.

Well, in the Netherlands (Veluwe) I was attacked by one last year, a huge hybrid. He crept up behind me. Luckily, my first instinctive response was succesful. However, the animal made a flanking movement. Probably to attack again, so I went to a safe place where I watched for hours. No one was looking for a dog. Later, someone else saw this individual too, a few kilometers away.

The official agency did not believe me and did not react, so the days after the incident I informed the foresters of all the neighbouring nature reserves. By simply speaking with them in the field. No information to the media, no use of internet, we have many wolf-haters here.

My message was: catch or kill the animal, he cannot not reproduce, he is dangerous to humans, the public will see it as wolf attacks.

One of them nodded in agreement and said: ''we can't wait for the official approval, we have to act immediately, it shall be done''.

For the record, I'm a huge fan of wolves, I see them regularly, follow their tracks and give foresters the information they need. But a huge agressive hybrid like this should be removed as soon as possible. Everything suggested that he was looking for the local pack, he followed their tracks. Probably, he wanted to kill the male alpha wolf. Judging from size he would easily win that fight. Then he would mate with the female and a lot of problems would be born.

Unfortunately our agencies and laws are not ready for situations like this. We have to depend on trigger-happy foresters, in a good way of course, who see the danger and act. Seriously, I don't want that, people hunting without permission, I prefer an ''official'' reaction.

The problem is, I contacted the official agencies again but they simply don't believe me, there are no hybrids here.

Strange, wolves can run 200 km in a single night (one from Antwerp went to our Brouwersdam and back in one night). Probably a strong hybrid walks in from Austria in a few days.

This story shows the problems in a land where wolves just arrived, where wolf-haters spread misinformation in the media, where the laws are not up-to-date.

 

[Ribbon]

Exciting story. How did you identify the 'hybrid' and do you have any proof of this?

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Exciting story. How did you identify the 'hybrid' and do you have any proof of this?

At the Veluwe I see wolves regularly so I know how they look. This one was different, the shape was of a wolf but he was bigger and the colors did not match, lots of silver-grey. No pictures, it was too dangerous to grab my camera that was lying on my backpack on the ground, I had to look as big as possible. And of course his behavior was extreme. Wolves in Western Europe do not stalk people. This year, there has been an incident in the Netherlands when people approached a den with young wolves. Then a wolf warned the visitors with a feint but that's normal behavior.

There are no unprovoked attacks, so I immediately knew this was something different. After the incident I studied the environment and it was clear that he had followed the trail of the local pack and then decided to sneak on me.

The next day, I met a forester there who was a dog trainer too. We discussed the incident, he was as surprised as me. There were no reports of escaped dogs. He had never seen this particular animal in the area and he knew the local pack well. His conclusion was the same, this was a hybrid.

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Good question, and I wonder if anyone can weigh in on the accuracy of the testing used.

The DNA of most of the wolves in the Netherlands is tested. These tests are also done to find hybrids. A small percentage (<5%) of dog-DNA is allowed because that's normal for wolves in Europe. According to our protocol hybrids are captured or killed*. For two reasons, in general hybrids don't fear humans and are known for attacks on them. And, if they mate there is another generation of hybrids.

From the tests we know the origin of the Dutch wolves. The majority of their parents, for instance in Germany, Poland, has been tested too, that's another check when searching for hybrids.

* see my earlier post, everything with wolves and hybrids is new for us, the rules are not clear.

 

[Ribbon]

At the Veluwe I see wolves regularly so I know how they look. This one was different, the shape was of a wolf but he was bigger and the colors did not match, lots of silver-grey. No pictures, it was too dangerous to grab my camera that was lying on my backpack on the ground, I had to look as big as possible. And of course his behavior was extreme. Wolves in Western Europe do not stalk people. This year, there has been an incident in the Netherlands when people approached a den with young wolves. Then a wolf warned the visitors with a feint but that's normal behavior.

There are no unprovoked attacks, so I immediately knew this was something different. After the incident I studied the environment and it was clear that he had followed the trail of the local pack and then decided to sneak on me.

The next day, I met a forester there who was a dog trainer too. We discussed the incident, he was as surprised as me. There were no reports of escaped dogs. He had never seen this particular animal in the area and he knew the local pack well. His conclusion was the same, this was a hybrid.

I'm sure you can understand people being sceptical when there is no substanciation regarding these kind of claims.

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

I'm sure you can understand people being sceptical when there is no substanciation regarding these kind of claims.

Well I expected this kind of remark after your question.

No reason for people to be sceptical, the situation on that site is so complex that you can't make up a story like this. Read the details.

Of course I can't describe everything here, it takes a full page and we have to be careful with information about the local pack. You are from the Netherlands, you know what's going on here with wolf-haters.

Besides, it was possible to get DNA there (where the public is not allowed) but if they don't do it, who's to blame?