Possible Gull Splits

[Heathy]

Hi all

I read with interest in Birdwatch this month the article of possible gull splits, I take it that it meant full species for Yellow Legged, Caspian, American Herring Gull etc.
Does anyone think that this will happen soon and if so what evidence is there to make them a separate full species rather than a subspecies.

Marc Heath

[Jasonbirder]

The majority of European Ornithological bodies (France, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden etc) consider the Herring Gull "complex" to be split along the following lines:-

Herring Gull Larus argentatus (comprising subspecies L. a.argenteus & L.a.argentatus)
American Herring Gull Larus smithsonianus
Siberian Gull Larus vegae (comprising subspecies L. v. vegae and L.v.mongolicus)
Caspian Gull Larus cachinnans
Yellow-legged Gull Larus michahellis (comprising subspecies: L. m. atlantis & L.m. michahellis)
Armenian Gull Larus armenicus

The BOU still has taken no decisions regarding the staus of herring Gulls or large white headed gulls pending further data/clarification.

[Jane Turner]

and what are we to do with the hybrids?

[Jasonbirder]

Shoot them ;)

[Jane Turner]

If of course you can identify them in the first place!

[very boring banned member]

If of course you can identify them in the first place!
How in :C do I identify hybrids if the species can't be told apart in the field?
-I do not B (: the new splits - it's only a twitchers' conspiracy fraud to get more lifers. :C

[Adey Baker]

If you can identify it in the field it's a species, if you can't it's a hybrid! ;)

lump them all together and it all becomes more relaxing!

[cuckooroller]

Shoot them ;)


Jason,

Sometimes these birds can bring us to the point of total distraction, I admit, but we must try to contain ourselves, musn't we!

;) o:)

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Marc,
Yes,many of these gull taxa may be split as seperate species,but more research needs to be done,especially as very little genetic difference has been found between the forms,even those long treated as full species under the BSC(yet a 'lump' based on genetics alone wouldn't really be tenable when these forms clearly act as 'good' species over most of their range)
I have no great desire either for careless splitting or maintaining the status quo,but would hope that whatever decision is taken has been reached scientifically,and the reasoning explained afterwards.
It would be so much better if such speculation was clearly denoted as such:there's no harm writing about the potential for taxonomic change,but at least make it clear that such change may be a while coming,if at all!;)
That said,there is a lot of research going on into the 'Herring Gull complex' at the moment,watch this space....
Harry H

[Surreybirder]

The European rarities committee taxonomic subcommittee recently published the 14th draft of its proposed changes. You can download it from the Internet as a .pdf document -- if you really want to!
I'll post the URL if I can find it!

HERE IT IS! (http://aerc.be/aerc_tac.htm)

I see that Harry Hussey has already started a thread on this report.

[cuckooroller]

Having already split L. armenicus, this is how the three major lists come down on this complex at the present time.

C = Clement's 5° Ed.(2003 updated)
SM = Sibley-Monroe (2003)
HM = Howard & Moore (2003)



Larus argentatus (pre-split)

SPLIT


L. argentatus (C,SM,HM) further split (C,SM) into L.argentatus (subsp. argentatus, omissus, argenteus)
further split (C,SM) into L. smithsonianus (monotypic)



L. cachinnans (C,SM,HM) further split (C,SM) into L. cachinnans (monotypic)
further split (C,SM) into L. barabensis (monotypic)
further split (C,SM) into L. michahellis (subsp. michahellis, lusitanicus, atlantis)


L. vegae (C,SM) (subsp. vegae, mongolicus)

[Tim Allwood]

well well

omissus raises its head again!

[cuckooroller]

well well

omissus raises its head again!

Tim,

Maybe it would be better to "omit" it!

[Bluetail]

Hmpf.... I'm a lumper. Quackers, squawkers, tweeters. That's yer lot.

Jason

[cuckooroller]

Jason,

That's the ticket! Let's relate everything to say "Ostrich". All the other birds would become just subtypes of the Ostrich. Getting silly here, I am.

;) B (: B (: 8-P

[very boring banned member]

Jason,

That's the ticket! Let's relate everything to say "Ostrich". All the other birds would become just subtypes of the Ostrich. Getting silly here, I am.

;) B (: B (: 8-P
One point to Cuckooroller! :bounce:
I believe in one almighty Herring Gull - do not keep other herring gulls!

[Sven W]

I recommend those of you who are upset by the Herring Gull split to read the AERC TAC paper referenced by Surreybirder above.

Apart from the already recommended splits and other taxonomic changes, there are also quite a few more proposed changes pending. For instance there will likely be a split of Canada Goose into two species, Crow into two or maybee three. A split of Lesser Black-backed Gull (Larus fuscus) has also been discused but the various experts have diverting views, so this one will take time. The largest propesed splits are otherwise that of White and Yellow Wagtail into 9 and 11 species respectively. There are several more proposals in the document.

All off these splits will probably not take place but several will. Personaly I see these changes as challanges and a good excuse to finally learn more about the gull complexes.

[cuckooroller]

Sven,

Regarding the Wagtails, the SM has already split werae from citreola and is carrying the following, for the time being, as pure PSC splits. I don't think it is a question of being upset, only that many, including myself, have tremendous difficulty anyway with Larus field identification.

Pied Wagtail* Motacilla yarrellii
split from: Motacilla alba
Moroccan Wagtail* Motacilla subpersonata
split from: Motacilla alba
Masked Wagtail* Motacilla personata
split from: Motacilla alba
Himalayan Wagtail* Motacilla alboides
split from: Motacilla alba
East Siberian Wagtail* Motacilla ocularis
split from: Motacilla alba
Amur Wagtail* Motacilla leucopsis
split from: Motacilla alba
Baikal Wagtail* Motacilla baicalensis
split from: Motacilla alba
Yellow Wagtail* Motacilla flavissima
split from: Motacilla flava
Grey-headed Wagtail* Motacilla thunbergi
split from: Motacilla flava
Black-headed Wagtail* Motacilla feldegg
split from: Motacilla flava
Spanish Wagtail* Motacilla iberiae
split from: Motacilla flava
Ashy-headed Wagtail* Motacilla cinereocapilla
split from: Motacilla flava
Yellow-headed Wagtail* Motacilla lutea
split from: Motacilla flava
Green-headed Wagtail* Motacilla taivana
split from: Motacilla flava
Kamchatka Wagtail* Motacilla simillima
split from: Motacilla flava
Alaska Wagtail* Motacilla tschutschensis
split from: Motacilla flava
White-headed Wagtail* Motacilla leucocephala
split from: Motacilla flava

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Steve,
the SM has already split werae from citreola
Really?In the new 'Pipits and Wagtails' book(Alstrom et al),'werae' isn't even upheld as a valid taxon,instead being classed as a synonym of citreola.Perhaps they meant calcarata,which has a black back in breeding plumage?
Harry H

[cuckooroller]

Hi Steve,

Really?In the new 'Pipits and Wagtails' book(Alstrom et al),'werae' isn't even upheld as a valid taxon,instead being classed as a synonym of citreola.Perhaps they meant calcarata,which has a black back in breeding plumage?
Harry H


Hi Harry,

Here is what I have on it.

Western Citrine Wagtail Motacilla werae
(Buturlin) 1907
Belarus; Ukraine; sw Russia; Kazachstan, wintering on Indian subcontinent
split from: Motacilla citreola
insert after: Motacilla flaviventris
Alexandra Pavlova, Robert M. Zink, Sergei V. Drovetski, Yaroslav Red'kin & Sievert Rohwer,
Phylogeographic patterns in Motacilla flava and Motacilla citreola: Species limits and population history
The Auk 120, 3 (2003): 744-758

The paper by Pavlova et al presents a study on the relationships within the flava and citreola groups of wagtails, based on mtDNA, obtained from specimens from many areas of the groups' geographic distributions.
The findings show that neither flava nor citreola are monophyletic, and that in all likelihood flava must be split up in (at least) three groups, namely:
tschutschensis (with at least plexa),
taivana (with at least macronyx), and
flava (with at least feldegg, beema, thunbergi, lutea and leucocephala)
But the issue remains unresolved for other taxa within flava, and limits are unclear at present. So, I am postponing their inclusion here. The split between werae and citreola is a much clearer one.

Source: www.ornitaxa.com

[Alastair Rae]

My goodness, how is a poor bod to keep up. Need to buy lots of new guides, reappraise all my records, update the database etc etc. I'd much prefer to be birding ... and building my list the old fashioned way!

[Blackstart]

So, can someone explain the finer points of separating Caspian and Yellow-legged Gulls?

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Blackstart,
This issue has been dealt with a few times on the forum,check out:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=11786&highlight=caspian+yellow+legged
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9361&highlight=caspian+gull+identification
Harry H

[Sven W]

I don't think it is a question of being upset, only that many, including myself, have tremendous difficulty anyway with Larus field identification.


Ok, "upset" was probably a bad choise of wording, "frustrated" might have been better. I guess this is the kind of mistakes you do then you write in another language than your native.

Regarding the splits of the three wagtail species M. flava, alba and citreola. From what I understand there is quite far from an unanimous view among the experts. flava and alba splits are in pending state in the AERC TAC recommendations. From what I can see the citreola split havn't even been up for voting yet. The Pavlova paper is mentioned in the M.flava discusions though.

[cuckooroller]

Sven,

Yes, I know people are all over the place on both of the related genera Anthus and Motacilla. With this much confusion I'm sure that all of the major lists will wind up respectfully disagreeing with each other and then it is just a question of having to know all of the different tax treatments again. No one ever said avian taxonomy was easy.

:eek!: :h?: