• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Possible Gull Splits (1 Viewer)

H

Heathy

Well-known member
Hi all

I read with interest in Birdwatch this month the article of possible gull splits, I take it that it meant full species for Yellow Legged, Caspian, American Herring Gull etc.
Does anyone think that this will happen soon and if so what evidence is there to make them a separate full species rather than a subspecies.

Marc Heath
 
The majority of European Ornithological bodies (France, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden etc) consider the Herring Gull "complex" to be split along the following lines:-

Herring Gull Larus argentatus (comprising subspecies L. a.argenteus & L.a.argentatus)
American Herring Gull Larus smithsonianus
Siberian Gull Larus vegae (comprising subspecies L. v. vegae and L.v.mongolicus)
Caspian Gull Larus cachinnans
Yellow-legged Gull Larus michahellis (comprising subspecies: L. m. atlantis & L.m. michahellis)
Armenian Gull Larus armenicus

The BOU still has taken no decisions regarding the staus of herring Gulls or large white headed gulls pending further data/clarification.
 
If you can identify it in the field it's a species, if you can't it's a hybrid! ;)

lump them all together and it all becomes more relaxing!
 
Hi Marc,
Yes,many of these gull taxa may be split as seperate species,but more research needs to be done,especially as very little genetic difference has been found between the forms,even those long treated as full species under the BSC(yet a 'lump' based on genetics alone wouldn't really be tenable when these forms clearly act as 'good' species over most of their range)
I have no great desire either for careless splitting or maintaining the status quo,but would hope that whatever decision is taken has been reached scientifically,and the reasoning explained afterwards.
It would be so much better if such speculation was clearly denoted as such:there's no harm writing about the potential for taxonomic change,but at least make it clear that such change may be a while coming,if at all!;)
That said,there is a lot of research going on into the 'Herring Gull complex' at the moment,watch this space....
Harry H
 
The European rarities committee taxonomic subcommittee recently published the 14th draft of its proposed changes. You can download it from the Internet as a .pdf document -- if you really want to!
I'll post the URL if I can find it!

HERE IT IS!

I see that Harry Hussey has already started a thread on this report.
 
Last edited:
Having already split L. armenicus, this is how the three major lists come down on this complex at the present time.

C = Clement's 5° Ed.(2003 updated)
SM = Sibley-Monroe (2003)
HM = Howard & Moore (2003)



Larus argentatus (pre-split)

SPLIT


L. argentatus (C,SM,HM) further split (C,SM) into L.argentatus (subsp. argentatus, omissus, argenteus)
further split (C,SM) into L. smithsonianus (monotypic)



L. cachinnans (C,SM,HM) further split (C,SM) into L. cachinnans (monotypic)
further split (C,SM) into L. barabensis (monotypic)
further split (C,SM) into L. michahellis (subsp. michahellis, lusitanicus, atlantis)


L. vegae (C,SM) (subsp. vegae, mongolicus)
 
Jason,

That's the ticket! Let's relate everything to say "Ostrich". All the other birds would become just subtypes of the Ostrich. Getting silly here, I am.

;) B :) B :) 8-P
 
cuckooroller said:
Jason,

That's the ticket! Let's relate everything to say "Ostrich". All the other birds would become just subtypes of the Ostrich. Getting silly here, I am.

;) B :) B :) 8-P
Click to expand...
One point to Cuckooroller! :bounce:
I believe in one almighty Herring Gull - do not keep other herring gulls!
 
I recommend those of you who are upset by the Herring Gull split to read the AERC TAC paper referenced by Surreybirder above.

Apart from the already recommended splits and other taxonomic changes, there are also quite a few more proposed changes pending. For instance there will likely be a split of Canada Goose into two species, Crow into two or maybee three. A split of Lesser Black-backed Gull (Larus fuscus) has also been discused but the various experts have diverting views, so this one will take time. The largest propesed splits are otherwise that of White and Yellow Wagtail into 9 and 11 species respectively. There are several more proposals in the document.

All off these splits will probably not take place but several will. Personaly I see these changes as challanges and a good excuse to finally learn more about the gull complexes.
 
Sven,

Regarding the Wagtails, the SM has already split werae from citreola and is carrying the following, for the time being, as pure PSC splits. I don't think it is a question of being upset, only that many, including myself, have tremendous difficulty anyway with Larus field identification.

Pied Wagtail* Motacilla yarrellii
split from: Motacilla alba
Moroccan Wagtail* Motacilla subpersonata
split from: Motacilla alba
Masked Wagtail* Motacilla personata
split from: Motacilla alba
Himalayan Wagtail* Motacilla alboides
split from: Motacilla alba
East Siberian Wagtail* Motacilla ocularis
split from: Motacilla alba
Amur Wagtail* Motacilla leucopsis
split from: Motacilla alba
Baikal Wagtail* Motacilla baicalensis
split from: Motacilla alba
Yellow Wagtail* Motacilla flavissima
split from: Motacilla flava
Grey-headed Wagtail* Motacilla thunbergi
split from: Motacilla flava
Black-headed Wagtail* Motacilla feldegg
split from: Motacilla flava
Spanish Wagtail* Motacilla iberiae
split from: Motacilla flava
Ashy-headed Wagtail* Motacilla cinereocapilla
split from: Motacilla flava
Yellow-headed Wagtail* Motacilla lutea
split from: Motacilla flava
Green-headed Wagtail* Motacilla taivana
split from: Motacilla flava
Kamchatka Wagtail* Motacilla simillima
split from: Motacilla flava
Alaska Wagtail* Motacilla tschutschensis
split from: Motacilla flava
White-headed Wagtail* Motacilla leucocephala
split from: Motacilla flava
 
Hi Steve,
the SM has already split werae from citreola
Click to expand...
Really?In the new 'Pipits and Wagtails' book(Alstrom et al),'werae' isn't even upheld as a valid taxon,instead being classed as a synonym of citreola.Perhaps they meant calcarata,which has a black back in breeding plumage?
Harry H
 
Harry Hussey said:
Hi Steve,

Really?In the new 'Pipits and Wagtails' book(Alstrom et al),'werae' isn't even upheld as a valid taxon,instead being classed as a synonym of citreola.Perhaps they meant calcarata,which has a black back in breeding plumage?
Harry H
Click to expand...


Hi Harry,

Here is what I have on it.

Western Citrine Wagtail Motacilla werae
(Buturlin) 1907
Belarus; Ukraine; sw Russia; Kazachstan, wintering on Indian subcontinent
split from: Motacilla citreola
insert after: Motacilla flaviventris
Alexandra Pavlova, Robert M. Zink, Sergei V. Drovetski, Yaroslav Red'kin & Sievert Rohwer,
Phylogeographic patterns in Motacilla flava and Motacilla citreola: Species limits and population history
The Auk 120, 3 (2003): 744-758

The paper by Pavlova et al presents a study on the relationships within the flava and citreola groups of wagtails, based on mtDNA, obtained from specimens from many areas of the groups' geographic distributions.
The findings show that neither flava nor citreola are monophyletic, and that in all likelihood flava must be split up in (at least) three groups, namely:
tschutschensis (with at least plexa),
taivana (with at least macronyx), and
flava (with at least feldegg, beema, thunbergi, lutea and leucocephala)
But the issue remains unresolved for other taxa within flava, and limits are unclear at present. So, I am postponing their inclusion here. The split between werae and citreola is a much clearer one.

Source: www.ornitaxa.com
 
Warning! This thread is more than 20 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

J
Drongo Cuckoo - justification for split?
Replies
0
Views
674
James Lowther
J
Mysticete
Subspecies groups and future splits
8 9 10
Replies
189
Views
20K
Mysticete
Mysticete
H
Caspian, Yellow Legged and Herring Gulls
Replies
6
Views
893
HH75
H
J
Birding Asia Taxonomy
2
Replies
29
Views
3K
Andy Adcock
Andy Adcock
Bertus
Brabant Netherlands - Lesser or Great Black-backed Gull?
Replies
1
Views
161
Southern Viking
S

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top