• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

D400 for 2014? (3 Viewers)

Nikon played this stupid game when people were asking for full frame, maybe they think it's funny; keeping customers guessing.

As I've said for years, I'd prefer 18MP and a higher fps than 24MP and slower. 18MP makes for a double page printed spread and doesn't fill cards up so quickly and waste time on the computer with data that won't get used.

If Nikon had a reasonably priced D400 with decent build and few faults, they'd be on a winner. There's a similar group of people on the plane spotters forums. A 500mm f5.6 mated with a 1.4TC would be great.

Obviously FX for birding is a no-go.
 
There are a LOT of people still wishing for a D400, but Nikon doesn't give a sh@*!# about what us "prosumers" and bird photographers want. If they did, they would have given us not only a D400 by now but also a 400mm f/5.6, or more pro/fast prime DX lenses, not some stupid 800mm that almost none of us can afford. Nikon almost ALWAYS matches whatever Canon offers and visa versa, so if the 7D II appears, the D400 (or D9000 or whatever it will be called) will soon follow; you can bet on that. I still think the D400 is coming, and I think it might even appear before the 7D II, but I'm not holding my breath.

I feel no strong inclination to change to FX for my bird photography or for "other" nature photography. I almost always end up cropping the bird images I take with my D7100, so all of the extra image I would get with a full frame sensor would never get used on birds. And for "other" photography, I'd rather use a smaller system that I can more easily carry for long hikes. Good prime lenses that you need to get all that detail from full frame sensors are generally big and heavy.

Although I would like to think that getting more pixels "on the bird" with the D7100 gives me more detail than I would get with the D800, I know that the lower pixel density on the FX sensors gives "higher quality pixels" with better dynamic range and high ISO performance, so the actual difference may be hard to see. I still feel pretty sure that current FX cameras in "DX mode" are not any better than the D7100 for birds, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see a head-to-head comparison.

Dave
 
Last edited:
Good prime lenses that you need to get all that detail from full frame sensors are generally big and heavy.

I still feel pretty sure that current FX cameras in "DX mode" are not any better than the D7100 for birds, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see a head-to-head comparison.

Dave

A couple of points, the very same lenses that photographers use on a DX are used on an FX, the weight issue is irrelevant, it may be a UK issue where reach is king but those same people with D300s and D700 / 800 / 610 etc have the same prime lenses. Why would any manufacturer make lenses specifically for DX especially specialised ones, as far as I know all there nice glass from the 200/2 to the 800/5.6 inc 70-200, 200-400 are all compatible with both. They don't sell 10's of thousands of these to add further financial woes.

If you keep an eye on the financial state of Nikon and Canon, both have adjusted forecasts and both negative, this is a tough time for photography. I kicked off in another thread but I am still to see an argument as to why DX should survive other than in a consumer market.

I thought you could get a suitable lens, the excellent af-s 300/4 with a 1.4tc gives the photographer a 420/5.6 lens, what Nikon should do is add vr to that lens. I know its only little but 420 is bigger than 400

The DX / FX comparison can only really relate to the D800 and the D300 as the D800 does offer a reasonable amount of pixels in DX mode.

The points have been made already, we all had full frame when we used 35mm film, when digital was introduced the cost of the sensor was huge and that drove the manufacturers to dream up the DX system as with memory the costs tumbled and now the better quality FX sensors are affordable.

I take it most of the nay sayers never used film or this wouldn't be a discussion

Me, I can only go on results, whether bird, mammals, insects, since going FX my images have greatly improved, still take the same shots at the same locations of mostly the same subjects, I'm the same, the optics are the same, the subjects are the same all thats changes is the bodies.

Oh if you fancy the ultimate lightweight walk about set up, get a Nikon 1 v2 the FT-1 adapter and stick it on a 300/4 an instant 800/4 lens, now that set up really does need vr or a monopod (oh yes and reasonable light)
 
Last edited:
If you keep an eye on the financial state of Nikon and Canon, both have adjusted forecasts and both negative,

Some very good points made, I think we can all agree that a choice of models and price would be ideal, but it’s the practicality of manufacture and the way the market is being driven, that Nikon and Canon are going down the FF route.

The big reason why we have FF, was the demand by the industry.

JPAC’s wrong at the high end of professional reproduction 18Mb doesn’t cut the mustard for DPS.

What you have to remember before FF digital, everything was shot large format film.

Nikon sat for many years with the 2D, 12Mb, it images barely made an A4. Photographers get paid only if they fulfil their clients wishes, Canon brought out their big guns, so they all changed, but, those images needed a lot of post production to correct them.

We don’t get that now; today’s images are near perfect, matching the very best of film. I’m staggered by just how good the iphone images are.

We are arguing (discussing) because we want to photograph a 4-inch ball of fluff and feathers. Our demands are unique in many ways, Nikon are just not going to address those needs, they can’t.

Dave’s right in the fact that the coverage of pixels will give you clearer imagery, that’s why Steve’s blown away with his macro shots. His shots would be exactly the size and clarity I would demand if he were commissioned.
 
I thought you could get a suitable lens, the excellent af-s 300/4 with a 1.4tc gives the photographer a 420/5.6 lens, what Nikon should do is add vr to that lens. I know its only little but 420 is bigger than 400

Since the 300/4 is such a great lens (VR rumoured to be added in 2014 - adding 50% to the price no doubt, the optics don't need 'improvement'), and since the x1.4 works so well on it, that is probably why no 400/5.6 has been forthcoming.

The 7DII is rumoured to be announced very shortly ... no doubt the D400 will follow post haste.

I'm sure the normal cycle for new bodies was greatly disturbed by the Tsunami in Japan and flooding in Thailand. Some projects then took priority over others.

If the D400 has a 24mp sensor, 8-10 fps with a much deeper cache than the 7100 and D4 AF module (also GPS and WiFi perhaps ?) and an enhanced DR range, then I'll be aboard and the D3s will be sold. I'd expect a price around US$1,500 - 1,800.

This targets a totally different market to the D610/DF/D800(E) which are superb all round cameras (portrait, landscape etc.) but could be improved for sports shooters. I'm sure a D400 would be a roaring success with any sports (inc. bird) shooters, amateurs and pros alike.

The only fly in this possible scenario is the announcement of the D4s - Nikon would not want to cannibalise their own sales and that camera is targeting the coming Olympics pro shooters. There would have to be a distinct difference beneficial to the D4s ... so we await the specs with keen interest.
 
Okay so here are 2 images, sorry nothing with feathers in sunlight in the garden one is taken on a D800e in DX mode on a 600/4, the other on a D300, same lens, both in M at a 250th sec at f4 both have had a standard processing applied in Nikon NX2 and saved as JPEGs
Which one is which?
Will happily upload the 2 with exif some time in the future
 

Attachments

  • 2-n0-exif.jpg
    2-n0-exif.jpg
    394.8 KB · Views: 110
  • _no-exif.jpg
    _no-exif.jpg
    354.8 KB · Views: 108
Steve: Please don't think of me as a "naysayer" to FX. The Nikon full frame bodies are fantastic. You and Frogfish and many others have proved they work great for birds. Someday I might finally get an FX body. Also I really respect your experience that your images improved after moving to FX. My own experience was a noticeable improvement moving from D300 to D7100. I went with micro-4/3 Olympus stuff for my lightweight system for hiking and general nature photography, but if I'm hiking with a guy carrying a D800, more power to him and I'm sure he could get better images than I.

I understand that the camera market is struggling, and also as a bird photographer I'm in a relatively small "niche" of the market, and I know it's not practical for Nikon or Canon to manufacture both FX and DX versions of the expensive telephoto lenses. ...but a few more DX-specialized high end lenses would sure be nice. At least Sigma is trying to do that. In the long run, you may be right that DX may not survive in the pro-caliber market. I think that would be too bad, because APS-C sensors (and even smaller) are capable of amazing quality; full frame sensors in comparison are sometimes overkill, approaching medium format quality.

I probably should try to sound less like I'm complaining or dissatisfied with Nikon, but I do get frustrated with their apparent priorities and secrecy. I have to admire what Fuji has been doing lately, openly and courageously putting out very nice stuff and giving us a future road map, working hard to improve the firmware, etc. Both Fuji and Pentax/Ricoh seem to have made a firm commitment to APS-C, so maybe someday they will have autofocus that equals the best Canon/Nikon systems and they will have the smaller/lighter pro telephoto lenses designed for APS-C sensors that I imagine are possible.

In the meantime, I know the main thing keeping me from getting more great shots is NOT that I need a D400 or a better lens. It's the limitations of that big stupid round thing behind my viewfinder and the fact that I'm not getting out often enough!

Frogfish, I hope you're right that the D400 would be a big hit with sports photographers and not just bird photographers. You may be right that we may have to wait until well after the D4s to see a D400. Photokina? We'll see.

--Dave
 
Last edited:
Okay so here are 2 images, sorry nothing with feathers in sunlight in the garden one is taken on a D800e in DX mode on a 600/4, the other on a D300, same lens, both in M at a 250th sec at f4 both have had a standard processing applied in Nikon NX2 and saved as JPEGs
Which one is which?
Will happily upload the 2 with exif some time in the future

Thanks, Steve. I won't try to guess which one is which! Can anyone do a similar side-by-side using D800 in DX crop mode at 100% vs. D7100 downsized to the same dimensions? I suspect it would also be difficult to see the difference in that. I noticed in the other thread that "Kennebunk Larry" said he did this comparison and tried hard to see a difference but couldn't, which is interesting.

--Dave
 
Not a nikon shooter and I have therefore only read parts of this thread. However, I wanted to answer the film statements that were made in a previous post:

In the world of film, the 35 mm format outcompeted the full frame (6x6 format) on the strength of, among others, Nikon. I do not see any reason that in the long run the same will not happen in digital. Exactly which size sensor that will survive long term is anybodies guess (and I am guessing a timeline of 20 years, not 2-5).

Secondly, size of cameras: my old film 35mm camera (which is still collecting dust somewhere at home) is slightly smaller and if I recall correctly also lighter than my current Panasonic m4/3 camera (the GH2).

Niels
 
Dave when you say high end lenses what are you talking about? Bearing in mind that all high end lenses for birding work on both FX and DX. 300/4, 80-400vr, 200-400vr 300/2.8, 400/2.8 not forgetting the 500,600 and 800.
Or are you suggesting that Nikon make these only compatible with DX? If that's the point what would be the point? No manufacturer in their right mind would make expensive glass with restricted compatibility. Or have I missed the point?
 
Hi Steve,
There are a few "holes" in the Nikon lens line up for DX that even the best available FX lenses cannot fill. One example is a super high quality ultra wide angle lens. I ended up going with the Tokina 11-16 zoom (not a prime) because after reviewing all the options it seemed there was no prime and the Tokina was about as good as I could get for super wide on DX.

I understand and largely agree with you that it is unrealistic for me to expect Nikon to make their top quality glass compatible only with DX, not FX, or to manufacture 2 different versions of top quality glass at every focal length. And obviously it serves their interests if making their lenses dual compatible encourages people upgrade to a more expensive new FX body. But I don't think I'm the only one who is very interested in the very best quality lenses optimized for DX sensors; just look at the very popular and well-received Sigma 18-35mm lens.

Secondly, as I get older in general I like the idea of lenses being lighter weight because they don't need to have as much glass to illuminate the smaller DX sensor. This goes for all focal lengths, but let's just consider the very heavy super-telephotos. The latest Canon 500mm f/4 with flourite elements is a full $2000 more than the current competing Nikon lens (yikes, over $10K) but I do like that it is only 7 lbs.--a full 1.5 lbs. lighter than the Nikon version. Now, imagine if they made a lens like that only for APS-C. How much lighter would it get? 6 lbs? 5.5 lbs? And what if they made an affordable f/5.6 version again for APS-C only? That might be even lighter. Slower yes, but most of my best bird photos are at f/5.6 anyway (more depth of field to get the whole bird in focus). A 5 or 6 lb. 500mm might be a game-changer compared to Nikon's 8.5 lb. monster. And I would not mind using it only with the smaller DX sensor. I know I can't fill up the larger FX frame with little birds anyway. I know Nikon won't do it, but am I crazy to think it's possible for someone to do it, someday?

--Dave
 
Last edited:
Problem is Dave that, and without wanting to at all appear snobby (after all I loved my Pentax K5 ! ), most DX users are not going to spend that much on a lens which is worth 4-5 times more than their camera.
The FX lenses on a DX will be giving you the best of the lens anyway, the DX image circle cutting out any border weakness (not that you really need bother about that when birding).
 
Sorry Dave as this is a birding forum and you were talking high end lenses I assumed you meant for birding. I'm not best placed to comment on wide angle lenses for cropped sensor.
Whilst I'm no optician. Does the sensor actually have an influence on the lens? I assumed it was focal length and speed which determined the size weight of the lens but happy for the better informed to tell me otherwise.
 
Well, I'm guessing a little about how much size/weight can be saved by designing lenses for smaller sensors, but intuitively we can all see that lenses generally can be smaller and smaller as the sensor size gets smaller. The lenses for my micro-4/3 system are a lot smaller/lighter than my Nikon DX system, and Nikon 1 lenses are even smaller, etc. The area of an APS-C sensor is 57% smaller than a full frame sensor (full frame 864 mm2 vs. APS-C 370 mm2) but the potential reduction in the weight would not be that much. The focal length after all remains the same, but the size of the lens elements and lens housing can get a little smaller in order to deliver the image to a smaller sensor. --Dave
 
The FX lenses on a DX will be giving you the best of the lens anyway, the DX image circle cutting out any border weakness (not that you really need bother about that when birding).

Yes, I'll try to remember that when I'm aching from all the extra weight I lug around in order to get frames that capture only 43% of what the lens is designed for... He he he.:-O
--Dave
 
Well, I'm guessing a little about how much size/weight can be saved by designing lenses for smaller sensors, but intuitively we can all see that lenses generally can be smaller and smaller as the sensor size gets smaller. The lenses for my micro-4/3 system are a lot smaller/lighter than my Nikon DX system, and Nikon 1 lenses are even smaller, etc. The area of an APS-C sensor is 57% smaller than a full frame sensor (full frame 864 mm2 vs. APS-C 370 mm2) but the potential reduction in the weight would not be that much. The focal length after all remains the same, but the size of the lens elements and lens housing can get a little smaller in order to deliver the image to a smaller sensor. --Dave

I'm not an expert in optics, but as I understand it, with long lenses, particularly fast-aperture ones, the size of the front element and the rest of the optics become the limiting factors, and it becomes difficult to realize any benefit from reducing the size of the image circle. For example, a 300mm f/4 lens will require a front element of at least 75mm to achieve that aperture (300/4), hence the existing 300mm f/4 AF-S is already around the minimum possible diameter, since its front element takes 77mm filters. Likewise, none of the telephoto lenses on other systems that are specifically designed for crop sensors are much smaller than their full-frame counterparts. For example, the Olympus 300mm f/2.8, designed to cover the 4/3 sensor lens is actually physically larger and heavier than the full-frame Nikon 300mm f/2.8 AF-S VR II (3300g vs. 2900g).

Instead, the only way to shave weight and bulk off of a large telephoto lens is to either a) use lighter structural materials and revise the optical design such as in the latest Canon 500mm f/4 you mentioned, or b) use various optical tricks such as including diffractive optic elements, e.g., the Canon 400mm f/4 DO IS, which is much lighter and shorter than the closest conventional equivalent (300mm f/2.8 + 1.4x TC), although the front element is necessarily still 128mm wide. But either of these methods can be applied regardless of whether a telephoto lens covers a full-frame or crop-frame sensor.

On the telephoto end, the only size benefit that DX confers is the ability to take advantage of the crop factor to get more pixels on a target for a given focal length. When I replaced my D7000, I almost went with a D800E because it provided the same pixel density as the D7000, but ultimately went like you did with the D7100 because it provided 24MP in the APS-C frame versus the 15MP of the D800E.

Conversely, for shorter lenses, the front element diameter ceases to be a limiting factor in size (e.g., even an 85mm f/1.8 only needs at least 48mm), and particularly for mirrorless designs, the shorter flange distance makes it easier to design wide-angle lenses. And it definitely is possible to make high-quality smaller DX lenses covering the wide-to-normal ranges; I also have the Tokina 11-16 and Sigma 18-35, and agree that they are excellent. Aside from the 35mm f/1.8 and arguably the 10-24 and 16-85, Nikon has just completely failed to do so; I've always used Sigma, Tokina, or Tamron glass for my shorter DX lenses.

Also, like you, for a long time I wanted a high-quality wide-angle DX lens. If it had come out a couple of years earlier, I absolutely would've picked up the Samyang 16mm f/2 the moment it came out. But today, I find that the answer for a fast wide-angle need is addressed either by bringing along the Sigma 18-35, or more typically, by also bringing along my Micro 4/3 kit and the 12mm f/2 to cover all focal lengths except for telephoto.
 
Last edited:
flanken,
Wow that is really interesting. Thanks for helping me learn and clearing up my misconception. I guess I'll have to let go of my hopes to someday have fast super-telephoto lenses for APS-C or micro-4/3 that are significantly less weight than the big full frame versions...

Although fast/wide telephotos are obviously better, the lighter weight less expensive telephotos that are 1 stop slower also appeal to me, if they are well made like the Nikkor 300mm AF-S f/4, because I think the sensors these days and the high ISO performance is so good we can often do very well with f/5.6 instead of f/4, or f/4 instead of f/2.8. Maybe someday Sigma will give us some new primes like this that aren't quite "pro" speed but still pro quality. Sigma's latest stuff seems to be getting better and better.
--Dave

PS. Sorry everyone for the digression away from the topic!
 
Last edited:
Dave, as you note, there's definitely a lot of weight to be saved by losing a stop of aperture. For big lenses, even a third of a stop can make a difference by shaving off some diameter and weight, such as comparing the Nikon 500mm f/4 AF-S (3880g, 391x139.5mm) with the Sigma 500mm f/4.5 (3150g, 350x123mm). That's what makes the 300mm f/4 such a great buy. But the slower lenses had better perform well wide open, since diffraction starts robbing sharpness on today's high pixel-density bodies even at f/8, so with a slower lens can become a toss-up between sharpness gained by stopping down versus sharpness lost to diffraction. Basically, we can't have it all, although I would sure like to!

...and to get us back on topic since I helped derail it, Nikon has given me little confidence to expect that they'll deliver a D400 this year, although I wouldn't be heartbroken if it never materialized, as the D7100 does everything that I would want in a D400, except perhaps have a dedicated AF-ON button and built-in WiFi. But then, I've never been a huge fan of the Nikon pro body control set, so this isn't something I've been particularly longing for, although I know others certainly have been.
 
The latest on Canon Rumours is that the 7D replacement could be announced next Feb. No guarantee of course, but if true then I'm 90% certain we will see a D400 by the Autumn.

Also if I want speed - high fps and a large buffer - then there's the D4 and soon to be announced D4s. Both will retail over £4000. The next fastest camera is infact the ancient D300s. After that your at 6fps with a large MP sensor and small buffer, so less than ideal. Even the old D2H was 8fps. So there's definitely a missing camera in Nikon's line up that the D400 could fill.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 8 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top