Considering a Partial Camera Upgrade - D500 w/ 200-500mm lens (2 Viewers)

[Coloradodipper]

only a "no brainer/obsolete" if you can afford it,

A Z7II and the new 180-600 would run only a bit more than the original-when-new price of both the D500 and 200-500, maybe less when one considers inflation. The Z8 is still fairly new and is priced pretty high at around $4K, I get that.

Mirrorless systems are now mature enough and filled in enough to be worthy of taking the financial hit it takes to make the move. For frugal average hobby types, I get the hesitation. For those who have the means, desire and even the need, like always, the sky is the limit.

Honestly, trying out a kit via Lensrentals might be the best way to see how something might work for you. I have used them in the past for this and done well with the hands-on I gleaned.

 

[GoldenBear]

I have been using Nikon in my job as a photographer since 1987 and I can tell you from vast experience that it is by no means hype.

Furthermore, you do realize that when you kick the Z7II, Z8 and Z9 into 1.5X crop mode, it is giving you exactly the same resolution as the APSC-only sized sensor on D500? But unlike going into crop mode on a D850, when you do it on any of the Nikon Z bodies, that new cropped view fills the entire viewfinder. You give up nothing and gain a lot.

Add to that things like 1/32,000th of a second shutter speed, no blackout even at 120FPS and NO shutter or mirror noise at all on the Z8 / Z9, Z mount mirrorless is a total no-brainer for wildlife photography. Believe me, I love my optical views through my Nikon F film bodies, Leica M bodies, Hasselblad V series and of course my 4x5 and 8x10 large format cameras for when I am shooting fine art.

But what Sony and Nikon have done with their mirrorless systems have truly made the DSLR near obsolete, especially in terms of wide to normal FOV

I have been using Nikon in my job as a photographer since 1987 and I can tell you from vast experience that it is by no means hype.

Furthermore, you do realize that when you kick the Z7II, Z8 and Z9 into 1.5X crop mode, it is giving you exactly the same resolution as the APSC-only sized sensor on D500? But unlike going into crop mode on a D850, when you do it on any of the Nikon Z bodies, that new cropped view fills the entire viewfinder. You give up nothing and gain a lot.

Add to that things like 1/32,000th of a second shutter speed, no blackout even at 120FPS and NO shutter or mirror noise at all on the Z8 / Z9, Z mount mirrorless is a total no-brainer for wildlife photography. Believe me, I love my optical views through my Nikon F film bodies, Leica M bodies, Hasselblad V series and of course my 4x5 and 8x10 large format cameras for when I am shooting fine art.

But what Sony and Nikon have done with their mirrorless systems have truly made the DSLR near obsolete, especially in terms of wide to normal FOV optics.

Going back to the original post, there's no mirrorless (fill in the brand / model), that would solve the mentioned noise / IQ issues as well or as cost effectively a faster F mount lens would.

Upgrading the D500 to full frame mirrorless is fine, and would gain a bit in noise / ISO handling, but it still has to be paired with a relatively slow lens, (barring $14K for the 400 F2.8 Z, which if you have it and want to spend it, forget everything I said, stick it on Z8/Z9 and never look back).

The idea that DSLRs are obsolete is nonsense - even Canon recently stated the same. Mirrorless is still in the relatively early stages of development and no doubt we all have to make the jump at some point, but none of what was mentioned in the original post... still working on technique, limited budget, poor IQ, or too much digital noise are going to be solved by jumping into mirrorless.

 

[GoldenBear]

A Z7II and the new 180-600 would run only a bit more than the original-when-new price of both the D500 and 200-500, maybe less when one considers inflation. The Z8 is still fairly new and is priced pretty high at around $4K, I get that.

Mirrorless systems are now mature enough and filled in enough to be worthy of taking the financial hit it takes to make the move. For frugal average hobby types, I get the hesitation. For those who have the means, desire and even the need, like always, the sky is the limit.

Honestly, trying out a kit via Lensrentals might be the best way to see how something might work for you. I have used them in the past for this and done well with the hands-on I gleaned.

The 180-600 z is basically the mirrorless version of the 200-500, except its a variable apeture that's even slower at the long end (both worse than fixed 5.6).

Fine lens and a nice option in mirrorless, but can't see how it would address any of the concerns they're having.

 

[Coloradodipper]

The idea that DSLRs are obsolete is nonsense - even Canon recently stated the same. Mirrorless is still in the relatively early stages of development and no doubt we all have to make the jump at some point, but none of what was mentioned in the original post... still working on technique, limited budget, poor IQ, or too much digital noise are going to be solved by jumping into mirrorless.

Canon said that because they are having a hard time with the transition. Maybe DSLRs are not obsolete in broad terms and believe me, I was not hip on mirrorless back when just Sony was doing it, but I shoot for a living (high end commercial and fine art) and make hundreds of thousands of images a year, it is a serious game changer for most people.

But like you said, back to the main point. The only way to get that tight shot with good image quality in any format by any maker in moderate to flat-ish light is by going with a faster long lens, 400mm 2.8 or 600mm F4.

I just called you out on the "hype" remark, mirrorless is simply not that in any shape or form.

Happy birding!

 

[kb57]

A bit late to this thread, but like the OP I'm starting to consider a possible staged upgrade from DSLR to mirrorless - in my case I've a D7200 / 300mm PF + 1.4TC combo that I'm certainly not unhappy with, given my priority for a lightweight walkaround system for a birder first / photographer distant second.

I was thinking along the lines of a Z7ii + adapter as first upgrade, to take advantage of advances in focus acquisition plus the bigger better sensor (set against which is the reduction in apparent reach moving to full frame from crop sensor). I wonder if this would work as an interim solution for the OP? My next step might be something like the Z 400mm f4.5 for a reasonably fast and reputedly very high IQ lens, if I felt there were gains to be had from using native Z glass. Appreciate Z8 and Z9 are likely to be better for birding, but are larger, heavier cameras and considerably more expensive.

I appreciate the comments from much more experienced photographers than myself on the importance of aperture and light gathering capacity, but would just throw a couple of things into the mix:
1) for birding, size and weight are of course really important, and those fast lenses are big (I was shocked when I met someone using an f2.8 300mm, both by the quality of images they were getting (admittedly stunning...) but also the size of the thing); and
2) depth of field is also important for birding, especially when capturing ID features is more important than the artistic merit of the photo - I rarely find myself shooting at the widest available apertures unless the light is really bad.

 

[njlarsen]

A bit late to this thread, but like the OP I'm starting to consider a possible staged upgrade from DSLR to mirrorless - in my case I've a D7200 / 300mm PF + 1.4TC combo that I'm certainly not unhappy with, given my priority for a lightweight walkaround system for a birder first / photographer distant second.

I was thinking along the lines of a Z7ii + adapter as first upgrade, to take advantage of advances in focus acquisition plus the bigger better sensor (set against which is the reduction in apparent reach moving to full frame from crop sensor). I wonder if this would work as an interim solution for the OP? My next step might be something like the Z 400mm f4.5 for a reasonably fast and reputedly very high IQ lens, if I felt there were gains to be had from using native Z glass. Appreciate Z8 and Z9 are likely to be better for birding, but are larger, heavier cameras and considerably more expensive.

I appreciate the comments from much more experienced photographers than myself on the importance of aperture and light gathering capacity, but would just throw a couple of things into the mix:
1) for birding, size and weight are of course really important, and those fast lenses are big (I was shocked when I met someone using an f2.8 300mm, both by the quality of images they were getting (admittedly stunning...) but also the size of the thing); and
2) depth of field is also important for birding, especially when capturing ID features is more important than the artistic merit of the photo - I rarely find myself shooting at the widest available apertures unless the light is really bad.

I am not understanding why you want to go light and at the same time think a step to full frame would help?

Anyway, I think this thread went through several topics that will be relevant for you to consider: comparison G9-ii and Om1
Yes, it started with m4/3 but became quite general in some of the later posts.
Niels

 

[kb57]

I am not understanding why you want to go light and at the same time think a step to full frame would help?

Anyway, I think this thread went through several topics that will be relevant for you to consider: comparison G9-ii and Om1
Yes, it started with m4/3 but became quite general in some of the later posts.
Niels

Thanks, I'll check out that thread.

I'm not sold on M4/3, based on my experience with my partner's G9. My D7200 / 300 PF lens is admittedly heavier, but way lighter and smaller than most if not all other DSLR combinations. I'd be reluctant to move to mirrorless based on my own experience to date, but the ability to move to high resolution full frame sensors whilst keeping a reasonable check on size and weight is tempting - and the FTZ Adapter would allow this to be a staged process.

 

[TonyHedges]

I had the D500, used it with a sigma 150-600, it's ok. Well, it's better than OK. I have moved on and I would recommend anyone with the wherewithal to do so too. I now have a Z9 and a 400mm 4.5 lens and it is quite simply the best thing I have ever had for bird photography. Remember the feeling, forget that, I am not going to spend all afternoon trying to get that photo, and it'll probably be out of focus? I don't get that now! Not since they released the firmware update that included Bird autofocus. It's point-and-shoot now. 20 FPS is a bit too much now. It costs too much in hard disk space. Be a bit more judicious with the shutter button, we are not Canon-shooters! They may release a direct D500 replacement, but in my opinion it's here already, it's the Z9. Take the plunge... The 400/4.5 is a great lens, I can vouch for it. Missed shots (on the whole) are a thing of the past. They released the 180-600 Nikkor lens that is internal focus, that looks to be way ahead of the Sigmas and Tampon offerings. Come on into the Nikon Z world, the waters warm!

 

[MikeInPA]

I had the D500, used it with a sigma 150-600, it's ok. Well, it's better than OK. I have moved on and I would recommend anyone with the wherewithal to do so too. I now have a Z9 and a 400mm 4.5 lens and it is quite simply the best thing I have ever had for bird photography. Remember the feeling, forget that, I am not going to spend all afternoon trying to get that photo, and it'll probably be out of focus? I don't get that now! Not since they released the firmware update that included Bird autofocus. It's point-and-shoot now. 20 FPS is a bit too much now. It costs too much in hard disk space. Be a bit more judicious with the shutter button, we are not Canon-shooters! They may release a direct D500 replacement, but in my opinion it's here already, it's the Z9. Take the plunge... The 400/4.5 is a great lens, I can vouch for it. Missed shots (on the whole) are a thing of the past. They released the 180-600 Nikkor lens that is internal focus, that looks to be way ahead of the Sigmas and Tampon offerings. Come on into the Nikon Z world, the waters warm!

Congrats on the Z9. I always shoot at 20FPS to enable selection of the best poses while avoiding the situations where the bird blinks. You don’t have to download them all, just the ones you want to save to disk.
The 400 f/4.5 works well with the 1.4x Teleconverter I hear. I got my Z9 back in January 2022 and it’s always been great for birds, every firmware update since has made even more improvements.

 

[Coloradodipper]

They released the 180-600 Nikkor lens that is internal focus, that looks to be way ahead of the Sigmas and Tampon offerings. Come on into the Nikon Z world, the waters warm!

I have the new 180-600 Z and it is truly a heck of a step up from the good old 200-500 VR in F mount. It has much faster AF on my Z7II, Z8 and Z9, is truly silent and the balance is fantastic with everything being internal (AF & zoom). I don't photograph birds but for what I do use it for, it is a good bit sharper than the 200-500 is as well. I got mine in about a week through NPS but for mere mortals, it will be well worth the wait and upgrade.

 

[MikeInPA]

I have the new 180-600 Z and it is truly a heck of a step up from the good old 200-500 VR in F mount. It has much faster AF on my Z7II, Z8 and Z9, is truly silent and the balance is fantastic with everything being internal (AF & zoom). I don't photograph birds but for what I do use it for, it is a good bit sharper than the 200-500 is as well. I got mine in about a week through NPS but for mere mortals, it will be well worth the wait and upgrade.

There’s a thread on Fredmiranda.com on the 180-600 with some outstanding photos.
Nikon 180-600 thread on Fredmiranda

I too got a very early copy and thought it an excellent lens. When Nikon announced the 600PF shortly after I got my order for one in with my local dealer immediately and received it on release day. I sold my 180-600 to a friend who is very happy with it. For the price of $1699 I’m not surprised it’s still hard to get.

 

[MikeInPA]

I had the D500, used it with a sigma 150-600, it's ok. Well, it's better than OK. I have moved on and I would recommend anyone with the wherewithal to do so too. I now have a Z9 and a 400mm 4.5 lens and it is quite simply the best thing I have ever had for bird photography. Remember the feeling, forget that, I am not going to spend all afternoon trying to get that photo, and it'll probably be out of focus? I don't get that now! Not since they released the firmware update that included Bird autofocus. It's point-and-shoot now. 20 FPS is a bit too much now. It costs too much in hard disk space. Be a bit more judicious with the shutter button, we are not Canon-shooters! They may release a direct D500 replacement, but in my opinion it's here already, it's the Z9. Take the plunge... The 400/4.5 is a great lens, I can vouch for it. Missed shots (on the whole) are a thing of the past. They released the 180-600 Nikkor lens that is internal focus, that looks to be way ahead of the Sigmas and Tampon offerings. Come on into the Nikon Z world, the waters warm!

🤣 Don’t you just love these Autocorrects. 🤣

 

[MikeInPA]

Don’t listen to the DSLR Luddites.
Mirrorless is the future.

Nikon certainly think so.

All Nikon F-mount products are out of production - Nikon Rumors

 

[BriLee]

The single biggest upgrade you could make to reduce noise and improve image quality is a faster lens. The 200-500 is versatile, but F5.6 is slow, way too slow for high shutter speeds to freeze wings on overcast days w/o a lot of noise.

Despite the hype, the D500 auto-focus still rivals any Nikon mirrorless except maybe the Z8/Z9, and you'd be giving up the extra reach of a crop sensor, which would likely be an issue since you're already cropping.

I have a D500 with the 500PF F5.6 which spectacular image quality-wise, but I rarely use it anymore preferring my D850 and 300 F2.8 DII set-up hands down. After using an F2.8, there's just no going back for 95% of the wildlife I shoot.

Consider upgrading to a Nikon 300 F2.8 lens for your D500, which takes you to 450mm and would reduce your ISO and noise substantially (with proper technique). You could even add a 1.4 TC taking you to 630mm at F4.

Nikon 300 F2.8's (DII, VRI, and VRII are the only versions I'd consider), are readily available at all-time low prices b/c of the rush to mirrorless.

At least for now, Nikon has no fast mirrorless glass that's under $10K, and who knows if they'll ever do a mirrorless update of the 300mm F2.8.

Another good lens is the 300PF F4, which is a full stop faster than the 200-500. My wife shots that lens almost exclusively due to its compact size, weight, and IQ.

Hello! I’m a novice bird photographer, and I’m trying to improve my skills. I’ve spent a lot of money on my camera set up, and it’s been wonderful for the past few years; however, I’m often disappointed with my image quality.

Here’s the specs and shooting style I’m working with:

Body: Nikon D500

Lens: Nikon AF-S Nikkor 200mm-500mm F/5.6 ED VR

Photographer: Still mastering manual settings, so definitely not the best model I shoot handheld, since I prefer to hike instead of camping in one spot. So I can’t carry anything heavier than my current setup.

I’m mostly struggling with excessive noise and grain, and it seems that nearly all my photos have unacceptable noise levels on overcast days (I live in Oregon, so that’s a lot of days). With only 500mm of zoom, I often need to crop to fill the frame, but the noise makes cropped photos unprintable. I shoot at f5.6 almost always to get as much light as possible, use auto iso with a max sensitivity of 2500, and shutter speeds around 800-2000th of a second to try and freeze wings, which usually leads to under exposure and blurry wings anyway. I’ll post some images as examples (with specs below). Am I imagining that this is way more grain than other wildlife photographers are getting in their images?

The problem is, I don’t have the money to fully upgrade my system. It seems the best quality upgrade would be to sell all my current setup and replace go fully mirrorless, but I can’t afford it. So here’s my question for the experts: is there a way I could replace only one or two pieces of gear and come away with improved image quality, or should I just wait till I can afford a whole new system? If you can give me some advice of possible setups I could research, I can figure out what I can afford from there.
-
Possible upgrade ideas that I know of:

1- Keep the lens, upgrade to a mirror less Nikon body and buy a lens adapter (and possibly struggle with autofocus issues)

2- Keep the D500 body, upgrade the lens (not sure what options I’d have here). I really like the ability to zoom with the 200-500mm, but could possibly consider a prime. Or I guess a shorter lens plus a teleconverter, then battle distortion problems?

3- My husband (he’s a wedding photographer) has an extra body I could use, a A73 Sony (mirrorless). Maybe I could buy a converter and stick my Nikon 200-500mm lens on that body? He’s not sure how much the quality would increase.

4- Save my money and focus on mastering my skills to improve my image quality with the gear I’ve got, and maybe play around with software like Topaz sharpening to reduce noise in post processing. And learn to be grateful for the setup I've got!

Please let me know what you think, and thank you in advance for any advice! Happy birding!

P.S. Specs for the attached images, if anyone wants to know:

I'iwi: 1/1600, f/5.6, ISO 720
Pipit: 1/1250, f/5.6, ISO 720
Cardinal: 1/350, f/5.6 ISO 1400. This one's a great example of overcast conditions being too dark for flight shots with my current set up. Maybe I could have gotten a usable image with different settings, but wanted to include this one cause it's so common for me: in overcast (but still pretty bright) light, flight shots seem impossible.

Hi,I don't want to overload you with more tips then ,has been stated already.Ive used that same combo for 3 years or so handheld,its a really good camera/lens combo.I have pretty dire lighting usually living in the South Penines UK,It can be difficult in those circumstances.I would recommend checking out Back Country Gallery ( Steve Perry ) youtube,some good tips for setting up D500, and then it's just practice and practice, ps personally i use the Nikon 200-500 at 6.3 as my copy anyway is slightly softer at 5.6.and 1 stop of light isn't much difference, I would recommend some denoising software Topaz,dxo photo lab deep prime, etc or other software programs ,and there's often a free trial version before you buy .regards Bri.

 

[BriLee]

Hi,I don't want to overload you with more tips then ,has been stated already.Ive used that same combo for 3 years or so handheld,its a really good camera/lens combo.I have pretty dire lighting usually living in the South Penines UK,It can be difficult in those circumstances.I would recommend checking out Back Country Gallery ( Steve Perry ) youtube,some good tips for setting up D500, and then it's just practice and practice, ps personally i use the Nikon 200-500 at 6.3 as my copy anyway is slightly softer at 5.6.and 1 stop of light isn't much difference, I would recommend some denoising software Topaz,dxo photo lab deep prime, etc or other software programs ,and there's often a free trial version before you buy .regards Bri.

Ps you could always upgrade to a mirrorless and the 200-500 works well with the ftz adapter Im time.Bri.