Brockonomics (1 Viewer)

[Troubador]

Brock has several time raised questions about the steady upward spiral of the price of alpha bins, and its a good question for debate.

To put these prices in perspective I have done a quick internet trawl to look at the prices of other stuff that people buy. As much as we wish that alpha prices were lower, it seems that they are not out of touch with the prices of other things. And, yes, you are free to point out that I could have chosen other examples.

You could say that Ultravids, EL SVs, HTs and SFs and EDGs are at the 'committed enthusiast' or 'professional' price levels so I have looked for other examples in this area.

I expect the SF to have a street price of around £1800 when it hits the shops, but that is just my guess.

A Canon 6D camera with L series 24-105mm lens £1,900
Professional level 5D with same lens £3,000

Panasonic 55" tv £1500 / 1600

MacBook with high spec £1700 / £2000

If you buy a General Motors Opel Astra 5 door 2.0 litre diesel instead of the Volkswagen Golf equivalent, you will save around £2,000. Buy a second-hand Skoda Fabia Estate (Combi) as we did and you can save about £11,000. Enough to fund one or two alpha bins.

Interesting.

Lee

 

[WJC]

Brock has several time raised questions about the steady upward spiral of the price of alpha bins, and its a good question for debate.

To put these prices in perspective I have done a quick internet trawl to look at the prices of other stuff that people buy. As much as we wish that alpha prices were lower, it seems that they are not out of touch with the prices of other things. And, yes, you are free to point out that I could have chosen other examples.

You could say that Ultravids, EL SVs, HTs and SFs and EDGs are at the 'committed enthusiast' or 'professional' price levels so I have looked for other examples in this area.

I expect the SF to have a street price of around £1800 when it hits the shops, but that is just my guess.

A Canon 6D camera with L series 24-105mm lens £1,900
Professional level 5D with same lens £3,000

Panasonic 55" tv £1500 / 1600

MacBook with high spec £1700 / £2000

If you buy a General Motors Opel Astra 5 door 2.0 litre diesel instead of the Volkswagen Golf equivalent, you will save around £2,000.

Interesting.

Lee

Your observation is certainly correct.

The talking point rests in the fact that if you wanted the best binos in the 1960s, You would be restricted to Zeiss or Leica (Leitz at that time). Today, there are many more options, and those options are getting better all the time. Sure, there's a lot of trash out there that people may rave about. Still the wary can buy a fine bino for a fraction of the "Alphas."

The big dogs have so much invested in R & D (including people with the skill to make it work), they can't afford to pay them peanuts, and keep them with their company. Where else can they get the money?

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Bencw]

It's a good point Lee, I tend to agree, and as Bill said, the top companies need the best quality in people and materials which does not come cheap in the US or Europe. I often wonder what the future holds for them though, the cheap optics flowing out of China at present, for peanuts, cant match the top brands, but it might in the not too distant future. Optically some of this stuff they sell for around £40 is quite surprising when you look through it, it can compete with some of the £200 range stuff, where the Chinese fall down is build quality is often cheap and poor. But I think one day they will crack it, and move on from the quantity over quality approach, their expertise is improving all the time, and their experts will come cheaper than ours, perhaps the Alpha companies are wise to keep making hay while the sun is still shining.

 

[WJC]

It's a good point Lee, I tend to agree, and as Bill said, the top companies need the best quality in people and materials which does not come cheap in the US or Europe. I often wonder what the future holds for them though, the cheap optics flowing out of China at present, for peanuts, cant match the top brands, but it might in the not too distant future. Optically some of this stuff they sell for around £40 is quite surprising when you look through it, it can compete with some of the £200 range stuff, where the Chinese fall down is build quality is often cheap and poor. But I think one day they will crack it, and move on from the quantity over quality approach, their expertise is improving all the time, and their experts will come cheaper than ours, perhaps the Alpha companies are wise to keep making hay while the sun is still shining.

I can remember when, "Made in Japan" was a sure sign of trash. Now think of Nikon, Kowa, Fujinon, etc. I recall the late Charlie Nemoto of Fujinon complaining about the Chinese. And just where do a lot of Steiners now come from? Yep.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[edwincjones]

to repeat what I have said in the past, and a paraphase of the TeleVue founder,

"buy the best optics that you can reasonably afford,
they will last a lifetime and only cost pennies (well maybe dollars now) a day"

edj

 

[jan van daalen]

Nice thread Lee, but I don't see the need for it.

The price is not the issue. You pay for a certain quality level. Down here the sales in A-fabric is dominant towards the subs (also in quantity).
So the majority goes for the (according to a single person outragious) price which comes with the wished quality.

Maybe when the A-fabric will give a barbercue knife set for free with the bins, Brock will be satisfied

Jan

 

[OPTIC_NUT]

There is a general trend in luxury goods now. The top or near-top items used to have more participation
from the upper middle class. That class is evaporating. You see it in cars, sporting goods, fine watches,
and binoculars. You go super luxury or you give in to the mass machine.

A maker like Zeiss or Leica will always do what it has to do to stay on top, and then amortize
the costs over the number of units. When the quantity starts drying up (for external reasons), you have to
raise the price to pay for your development. The engineering and production tooling for Monarch-7s will be
amortized over a much larger base than for SwaroVision binoculars. I'd imagine the amortization of the
Nikon Acculons would get to be in the millions worldwide, given a 2-6 year run on the models.

I think it's simply a matter of the sales base. Zeiss would do well to come up with a no-holds-barred $10K pair,
since the money starts up again there. I had a CEO at a company of 12 people who leased an $800K car
for appearances. That guy wouldn't be caught dead under $10K if you made $10K binoculars. And he'd probably
lose them overboard or forget them in a taxi.

There are fanatics. Paying a couple thousand dollars for something you might spend a thousand hours a year
using may be reasonable. This isn't a very big base, though. At the nature preserves, most
people get confused about the diopter adjustment and give up. They just use their eyes. Not sure if that
is more or less common, but it narrows the base. The chief threat to the heavy-user-fanatic market is:
people who cannot retire and have to keep working. That's on the rise. Less money, sure, but even less time.

 

[Troubador]

Nice thread Lee, but I don't see the need for it.

The price is not the issue. You pay for a certain quality level. Down here the sales in A-fabric is dominant towards the subs (also in quantity).
So the majority goes for the (according to a single person outragious) price which comes with the wished quality.

Maybe when the A-fabric will give a barbercue knife set for free with the bins, Brock will be satisfied

Jan

Hi Jan

Yes, I agree with your assessment.

However if Bird Forum was confined to threads that we actually need, Bird Forum might be a little quiet. :smoke:

Lee

 

[bh46118]

:t:

Hi Jan

However if Bird Forum was confined to threads that we actually need, Bird Forum might be a little quiet. :smoke:

Lee

 

[Mono]

Just did some back of an envelope calculations and in the 10 years 2003-2013.

UK price inflation up 37%

UK wage inflation up 33%

UK price of alpha binoculars up 59% ( Ultra Vid 8x32 first one I found a 2003 price for)

 

[Troubador]

Just did some back of an envelope calculations and in the 10 years 2003-2013.

UK price inflation up 37%

UK wage inflation up 33%

UK price of alpha binoculars up 59% ( Ultra Vid 8x32 first one I found a 2003 price for)

Hi Mono

Just to be clear, are you comparing 'street retail price' with 'street retail price' and not getting involved with manufacturers recommended retail, full list, prices?

Lee

 

[Mono]

I used shop offer price for the binoculars not rrp

 

[jan van daalen]

Just did some back of an envelope calculations and in the 10 years 2003-2013.

UK price inflation up 37%

UK wage inflation up 33%

UK price of alpha binoculars up 59% ( Ultra Vid 8x32 first one I found a 2003 price for)

OK, how about this for inflation:

A few years back I was in the US for a binocular meeting and among other things was presented a hybrid (thermal, nightvision and optics in one device) which had a price of $78.000,00.
Everybody had fun after hearing this pricetag.
OK said the guy, lets go back to the times round WWI. The German officers were obliged to buy their own pair of feldstecher (binocular) which costed in those days 2 years salary of a normal working man. That's the same amount of this device say 100 years later.

Top notch optics costs today let us say one month salary.

Not bad for 100 year inflation.

Jan

 

[WJC]

OK, how about this for inflation:

A few years back I was in the US for a binocular meeting and among other things was presented a hybrid (thermal, nightvision and optics in one device) which had a price of $78.000,00.
Everybody had fun after hearing this pricetag.
OK said the guy, lets go back to the times round WWI. The German officers were obliged to buy their own pair of feldstecher (binocular) which costed in those days 2 years salary of a normal working man. That's the same amount of this device say 100 years later.

Top notch optics costs today let us say one month salary.

Not bad for 100 year inflation.

Jan

The US Navy Mk 28 cost $350 in 1942. Based on two inflation calculators, that's $5,073.78 in today's economy.

Bill

 

[jan van daalen]

The US Navy Mk 28 cost $350 in 1942. Based on two inflation calculators, that's $5,073.78 in today's economy.

Bill

I really wouldn't know, but is it fair to say the prices dropped in the period WW1 and WW2?

Does anyone has a pricelist from those days?

Jan

 

[brocknroller]

Just did some back of an envelope calculations and in the 10 years 2003-2013.

UK price inflation up 37%

UK wage inflation up 33%

UK price of alpha binoculars up 59% ( Ultra Vid 8x32 first one I found a 2003 price for)

DING! DING! DING! Go here to collect your Kewpie Doll

Others have oversimplified by multiplying by inflation without also taking into account the real value of the wages that pay for those increases in consumer prices. If wages had kept pace with inflation, then no problem, but as you've shown with alphas, they haven't, and they haven't here in the U.S. either, a point I made on my "Would you buy an alpha made in China?" thread.

us-workers-now-earn-less-1968-minimum-wage

And why in the future, and I'm not talking distant future, premium optics makers will be forced to either move their production elsewhere or become boutique companies, with very high prices and limited sales.

Even those BF members with deep pockets are eventually going to poke a hole in them as they retire and start living on a fixed income. Their children and grandchildren won't be making the kind of dough that they were, thus the reason why Zeiss is becoming a multi-tier company. That's the way to survive, at least in the short run. But when they lose the baby boomers, they will need to change their strategy, because the shift will be downward, not upward.

No back to our regularly scheduled propaganda program... :smoke:

Brock

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Hi Jan

Yes, I agree with your assessment.

However if Bird Forum was confined to threads that we actually need, Bird Forum might be a little quiet. :smoke:

Lee

I agree Lee.
Bryce...

 

[ceasar]

Brock,

If we could see into the future, and I am not talking about the distant future, no one would take bets on tomorrows horse races.:smoke:

Bob

 

[brocknroller]

Brock,

If we could see into the future, and I am not talking about the distant future, no one would take bets on tomorrows horse races.:smoke:

Bob

As the other Bob once said: You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows (or smoke). :smoke:

<B>

 

[ceasar]

As the other Bob once said: You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows (or smoke). :smoke:

<B>

Brock,

As St. John the Beloved said, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whither it cometh or whither it goeth:" John 3:8 (KJV)

Bob