Sightron "Blue Sky" II 8x32 (3 Viewers)

[mulligatawny owl]

Black crow, I prefer SE's to EII's mainly because I wear glasses and also appreciate the extra brightness of the SE over EII but many prefer EII so if you do get some don't expect a giant leap over your EII's.

I think the Sightrons probably have at least very close sharpness to the likes of EII SE and the alpha's but what they obviously lack is that crystalline clarity .Though perhaps equally sharp theirs is a sort of slightly muddy sharpness in comparison. I know that makes no sense! I lack any technical abilities to describe it any other way.

Also thinking about it, I've concluded there is definitely sample variation going on at all price levels. I remember my first real sharpness wow was with an Opticron hrwp 8x42 , it was just killer sharp, I stupidly sold it and the next one I got was just horrible. I also had a Swarovski SLC HD that wasn't very sharp to my eyes.

Anyway, I reckon I got a good Sightron!

 

[Chosun Juan]

Black crow, I prefer SE's to EII's mainly because I wear glasses and also appreciate the extra brightness of the SE over EII but many prefer EII so if you do get some don't expect a giant leap over your EII's.

I think the Sightrons probably have at least very close sharpness to the likes of EII SE and the alpha's but what they obviously lack is that crystalline clarity .Though perhaps equally sharp theirs is a sort of slightly muddy sharpness in comparison. I know that makes no sense! I lack any technical abilities to describe it any other way.

Also thinking about it, I've concluded there is definitely sample variation going on at all price levels. I remember my first real sharpness wow was with an Opticron hrwp 8x42 , it was just killer sharp, I stupidly sold it and the next one I got was just horrible. I also had a Swarovski SLC HD that wasn't very sharp to my eyes.

Anyway, I reckon I got a good Sightron!

MO, I think what you and BC are referring to is the particular quality to the view of 'clarity' that comes from a 100% internally reflecting prism (Porros or A-K) , as seen in the Nikon SE, and EII, the Swarovski Habicht's, and SLC (x56), the Swift Audubon, the Zeiss FL (x42 and x56), and HT (x42 and x54), and the Maven B2 (x45), etc, among others. It comes from not having the losses associated with the dielectric (or aluminium or silver coated) mirror of the S-P prism.

This to me is distinct from.a 'crystalline' quality to the view of which the Swarovski SV is the best exemplar I have seen. As best as I can define it, that comes from great micro contrast, in concert with a neutral colour rendition and really high transmission levels in the blue and red .....

I haven't followed all of BC's rather hectic adventure completely but can't help but wonder from the above post whether a Zeiss HT would give a rather suitable WOW ! :eek!: :cat:



Chosun :gh:

 

[black crow]

MO

I reckon you did too. I took mine out on my morning dog walk just a few moments ago and for what I paid for it it's my best optic. I have no plans to buy anything more at the moment. I have a whole stable of great optics and the SEs are something for possibly another lifetime. I'm pretty satisfied right were I am and I'm not a spring buck anymore. Of course who knows what's coming down the pike in the way of optic improvements.

 

[black crow]

MO, I think what you and BC are referring to is the particular quality to the view of 'clarity' that comes from a 100% internally reflecting prism (Porros or A-K) , as seen in the Nikon SE, and EII, the Swarovski Habicht's, and SLC (x56), the Swift Audubon, the Zeiss FL (x42 and x56), and HT (x42 and x54), and the Maven B2 (x45), etc, among others. It comes from not having the losses associated with the dielectric (or aluminium or silver coated) mirror of the S-P prism.

This to me is distinct from.a 'crystalline' quality to the view of which the Swarovski SV is the best exemplar I have seen. As best as I can define it, that comes from great micro contrast, in concert with a neutral colour rendition and really high transmission levels in the blue and red .....

I haven't followed all of BC's rather hectic adventure completely but can't help but wonder from the above post whether a Zeiss HT would give a rather suitable WOW ! :eek!: :cat:



Chosun :gh:

I'm pretty sure I'd get a WOW off the HT. Nice descriptions you got goin there.
I get a big WOW off my Swaro, the Leica and the Nikon. I didn't get it on the Sightron on my walk just now but I got close once looking from a very close distance at some bright red berries on a holly bush. It was pretty nice. As to the Maven11x45, would you put it up there with the other alphas mentioned?

 

[Chosun Juan]

I'm pretty sure I'd get a WOW off the HT. Nice descriptions you got goin there.
I get a big WOW off my Swaro, the Leica and the Nikon. I didn't get it on the Sightron on my walk just now but I got close once looking from a very close distance at some bright red berries on a holly bush. It was pretty nice. As to the Maven11x45, would you put it up there with the other alphas mentioned?

I haven't seen that one BC, but CA handling may not be up to Alpha levels.

I found the Zeiss 8x42 HT a 'WOW' ! .... the only S-P prism roof in that league is the Swarovski 10x50 SV for me. The 8x32 SV also impresses for what it is (super easy to look through for me, which doesn't always happen at 32mm, especially given my glasses) , and the Zeiss 8x42 SF has potential if they'd fix it up along the lines I have suggested.

That Porro /A-K 'clarity' is addictive. A good project (especially for those of you stateside with easier access to professional screw turners) would be to get one of the last Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED and have it 'hot rodded' - tear it down completely, clean up the guts, and install proper blackening and anti-glare baffling, substitute some nicer more precise eye cups, and clad it in a custom perforated leather armouring ..... could probably be done for circa less than a grand ! :t:
http://www.thesportsmonkey.com/products/Swift-Premier-Audubon-ED-Binoculars-8.5x44.html
(No warrant on this vendor as I have no dealings with or info on them - just an example of the ask and availability, as I believe stock most elsewheres is discontinued, and there is no official factory support - so checking the unit is vital)
Ya definitely has gots to get the ED version - the CA handling is superb. :t:

An 'Alpha' view. It certainly has the 'clarity' , brightness, and wow. The colour rendition is ever so perceptibly cream, but get rid of that damned glare by hot rodding it, and you could live with that.

I've thrown the suggestion out a number of times, but no takers yet .... surely one of you 'binoholics' could take up the challenge and attain :king: status around here ! o



Chosun :gh:

 

[black crow]

You're talking to the wrong guy here friend. I have trouble getting my ELs out of their case. Not to mention getting the overblown rain-guard to go on the dang eyecups.

 

[Chosun Juan]

It would have to be professionally done BC. I know the numbers of trained and experienced service technicians (screw turners are dwindling, and Bill can't be coaxed out of retirement, but I think it would be an interesting project that would yield great results :t:

..... not to mention the interest out in the field, and the couldn't jump over them kudos here ! :king:

It would be a real 'toy' thing and bragging rights though, since your 8x32 SV would do just about everything it could. :cat:



Chosun :gh:

 

[dries1]

Chosen,

Why not contact someone you prefer to do this proposed project, and parlay up the funds.

Andy W.

 

[black crow]

It would have to be professionally done BC. I know the numbers of trained and experienced service technicians (screw turners are dwindling, and Bill can't be coaxed out of retirement, but I think it would be an interesting project that would yield great results :t:

..... not to mention the interest out in the field, and the couldn't jump over them kudos here ! :king:

It would be a real 'toy' thing and bragging rights though, since your 8x32 SV would do just about everything it could. :cat:



Chosun :gh:

When you get it all done I'll buy it from you. :t:

 

[Chosun Juan]

Chosen,

Why not contact someone you prefer to do this proposed project, and parlay up the funds.

Andy W.

Andy, I probably detailed a few reasons in the dedicated thread where I reviewed them, but for at least one, since a shoulder injury I am very unsteady holding that shape (same goes for the Zeiss SF for me to a lesser extent, with its dose of smoke and mirrors ergonomics) in comparison to a few preferred roof shapes - my Zen-Ray ED3 being the best of them (closely followed by the Swarovski 10x50 SV -though rather more weight than I want, and the Nikon MHG is fantastic too).

I only traipsed down this tangent since BC and MO were discussing the 'clarity' seen in the porro Nikon SE/EII etc in comparison to the Sightron (described by MO as having "slightly muddy sharpness" in comparison) ..... I just thought I would chime in to 'clarify' .... and the 'hot rodding' progressed from there.

Perhaps I will hot rod the Zen instead and drop a new 'donk' in it ! :-O ..... though I'd probably want a go fast carbon fibre chassis and suspension upgrade too .... :cat:

Anyway, back to normal Sightron discussions .... I think BC pinned down the difference between it and his Swaro 8x32 SV well via the difference in Wow factor.

The Sightron has given a lot of folks great bang for the buck though, so more power to it :t:



Chosun :gh:

 

[dries1]

Chosen,

Wish you speedy full recovery on the shoulder. I am lifting new to me a 10X56 T FL mint, it is my heaviest by a bit, at 1250 grams. But what a great view, and I don't even feel the weight of the MHG 8X42 afterwards.

Andy W.

 

[black crow]

Anyway, back to normal Sightron discussions .... I think BC pinned down the difference between it and his Swaro 8x32 SV well via the difference in Wow factor.





Chosun :gh:

So how does one quantify this Wow factor? What makes it happen in one binocular and not another, all other things being equal? :cat:

 

[Theo98]

So how does one quantify this Wow factor? What makes it happen in one binocular and not another, all other things being equal? :cat:

When you bring binoculars to your face, obtain your optic sight picture and you involuntarily verbalize, "WOW", then that instrument, at that time, in that place becomes Your WF!! :-O

Ted

 

[black crow]

See that's why I couldn't answer this for myself. I've never been good at science. Thanks for doing the math.:t:

 

[mulligatawny owl]

Can I put my name down for one of these hot rodded Swift's porros?!

I went out with the Sightron and my HT yesterday, lovely sunny but slightly hazy early evening conditions. Repeatedly lifting both bins to my eyes to check objects near and far for sharpness, for a while I thought -oh no I've got it completely wrong again and way overpraised the sharpness of the Sightrons , as the HT completely and comprehensively outperformed them.

BUT once both bins were pointed away from the sun into areas of slight shade or 'clean air' ,cant think how else to put it right now, what I mean is when the playing field was level, then the sharpness was at least equal to my eyes, near or far.

In fact, scarily, if someone with far more technical ability than me told me they'd set up some proper resolution testing between the two and found the Sightron sharper than the HT I wouldn't be at all surprised!

 

[chris6]

Clarity & Abbe-Koenig vs. Schmidt-Pechan

...'clarity'...comes from a 100% internally reflecting prism (Porros or A-K) , as seen in...

... Nikon SE, and EII,
... Swarovski Habicht's, and SLC (x56),
... Swift Audubon,
... Zeiss FL (x42 and x56), and HT (x42 and x54),
... Maven B2 (x45), etc, among others.

...It comes from not having the losses associated with the dielectric (or aluminium or silver coated) mirror of the S-P prism...

Images and text for my own notes, apologies for the editing ||

 

[Chosun Juan]

So how does one quantify this Wow factor? What makes it happen in one binocular and not another, all other things being equal? :cat:

I think there's a ridiculously long and highly tangential thread on it somewhere - ask 20 different people and get 24 different answers !

It is both quantitative, and because of our individual physiology, subjective too. In my world it consists of a combination of several things and the absence of several things too .....

Ted had it pretty right - you'll get an instantaneous thought of 'Wow' come to you .... like just being transported closer to what you are viewing with no distracting binocular quoibles in the way ....

The bin needs:-
* Clarity (some people call this transparency) - it is more readily found in Porros, A-K's, Perger prisms, though it needs other factors too (such as neutral colour rendition, high transmission, and well controlled aberrations etc). I think this quality is best thought of as the 100% internal reflection that separates these prisms from S-P ones. In numerical terms it is about an extra ~1 - 2 % or so (or more if the S-P mirror is Aluminium or Silver) transmission due to this factor alone.
* An extra wide field of about ~70° AFov sharpish to the edges - to give that immersive 'walk in view'. This is based on our eyes physiology and natural field of view.
* Ease of view - this goes beyond appropriate ER, and EP, and 'fit' for you - and into such esoteric design parameters as 'randpupille' .... basically increased margin of error for alignment. A prime exemplar of this is the Swarovski 8x32 SV.
* Excellent glare control - sometimes difficult to achieve with high ease of view, but very important so as to not detract from other traits.
* A Field Curvature, and Distortion Profile and Angular Magnification response that gives a pleasing sharpish to the edges view to your eyes without any unwanted rolling gremlins - 'bowl' from too much pincushion distortion, or 'ball' from too little pincushion distortion or too much barrel distortion. We are all different, but fit on a normal bell curve and so about ~80% of us will have commonality in our responses which let's bin designers target a viable market.
* Life like or enhanced 3-D effect - I don't think anyone really enjoys a trip to "flatland" (a famous book about a 2 Dimensional world that our Maths teacher used to read to us !
* Neutral colour rendition. As close to perfect white balance as possible gives the greatest range of colour fidelity in various situations.
* High flat transmission curve and Brightness - this gives both the highest brightness to aid our acuity, and also the best colour vibrancy too.
* Sharpness - this goes without saying - basically without all the maths you'll know it when you see it. A function of both resolution and the Modulation Transfer Function (see here for a highly technical explanation http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html)
* Micro Contrast - a function of MTF performance - the easiest way to explain it is that you want bins that show you more real life detail, and less of a blended cartoonist type of image.
* Mechanical precision - this will translate into better 'focus snap' and optical precision.

The things you don't want to see:-
* CA
* Astigmatism
* All manner of crud, fuzziness, weird distortion gymnastics with abrupt and unnatural changes and skewed colour cast, etc.

If you can find all of this in a great ergonomic package then you are on your way to the grail !

Without any real detailed grasp of the mathematics and physics, you'll be able to 'intuit' much of that to arrive at very similar conclusions.

Some bins that I regard as having real Wow are:-
Swarovski 10x50 SV
Zeiss 8x42 HT.

Honorable mentions go to:-
Swarovski 8x32 SV
Zeiss 8x42 SF
Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED
Nikon 10x42 MHG

I'd be interested to hear how you find the glare performance of your 8x32 SV over on the appropriate thread :t:



Chosun :gh:

 

[black crow]

That's a pretty great effort at describing WOW. I don't know much to the depth you do but I do feel I'm at the point now where I can 'intuit' what WOW is pretty well.

The little Nikon 8x and 10x EII has much of what you describe that creates WOW. huge FOV, huge 3D,Glare control, sharpness, micro contrast etc. In an under $500 optic IMO it's truly exceptional with lots of WOW for me. As to the SV I know that there are some glare issues because of how it compares to my 10x Ultravid which seems to have really very little of that but so far it's not been a huge problem for me on the EL and it's offset to a great degree by some other things. That's how it goes with optics right? I would never have guessed that the Nikon 10x42 MHG would make a WOW list. They sound like an excellent value.

I did not know you were a woman. How wonderful. We are lucky to have you here IMO. I wish my friend could pluck up the courage to post here because she'd really benefit. She feels way overmatched here and is not secure socially so it's a no go unfortunately. I've tried to explain how kind and generous most are here but again no go. She won't even come here to lurk. I think she feels very inadequate and doesn't want to end up comparing herself to others here. (I know how this goes, in my childhood I had terribly debilitating social anxiety) So I play the intermediary for her which I enjoy.

 

[chris6]

... * Micro Contrast - a function of MTF performance - the easiest way to explain it is that you want bins that show you more real life detail, and less of a blended cartoonist type of image...

Typo has also mentioned MTF. In the Meopta HD 12x50 review I think he was pointing out that designers might have chosen certain parameters for modulated transmission functions, perhaps to suit those functions of the eye and brain which are employed to spot things when they move.

Had a quick look at the links but after all could not understand MTF! However, when comparing Sightrons with Orion Ultraview 8x42, which is also reputed to be sharp, I thought that the images provided by the Sightron clones were 'less of the blended, cartoonist' type.

 

[Chosun Juan]

That's a pretty great effort at describing WOW. I don't know much to the depth you do but I do feel I'm at the point now where I can 'intuit' what WOW is pretty well.

..... I would never have guessed that the Nikon 10x42 MHG would make a WOW list. They sound like an excellent value.

I may have been a bit ambitious with the MHG ! :loveme: - strictly optically it's a half step or so behind the honorable mentions - it could do with a bit more sharpness, and a smidgen more brightness, neutrality, and clarity - it's a function of its optical glass specification and price point which hobbled it just a bit. What is a Wow though is the superb ergonomics, and that Nikon have achieved such a wide field, with good ER, and reasonable edge sharpness in such a compact, lightweight package. It helped that there was less CA than I was expecting from reports too.

.... I wish my friend could pluck up the courage to post here because she'd really benefit. She feels way overmatched here and is not secure socially so it's a no go unfortunately. I've tried to explain how kind and generous most are here but again no go. She won't even come here to lurk. I think she feels very inadequate and doesn't want to end up comparing herself to others here ....

Encourage her to at least lurk, if not join up - it's a friendly place with some great people here. Perhaps she should read the 'Desiderata' again .... I love it. A beautifully written bit of wisdom for sure
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata

"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

Desiderata
by Max Ehrmann




Chosun :gh: