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Two people break 10,000 species, and on the same day? Can it be? (1 Viewer)

pbjosh said:
His comment that the thread feels a little hostile I found a bit rich. He put his neck out claiming 10k species, and he seemed to be looking for fame and glory a bit.

It was a big claim. Whether he had 10k or not, what he had available to view on iGT was kind of a mess and didn't convince many people. He still hasn't commented (as far as I've seen) on species like Purple-winged Ground-Dove, Cozumel Thrasher, Manipur Bush-Quail, Jerdon's Courser, Fiji Petrel, etc. He wrote his own press release calling himself one of the best birders in the world. Again, to me he seemed to be looking for a bit of fame (nothing wrong with that though the timing was suspect).

But when the questions started coming he posted a political deflection, then played the victim a bit and said he'd take his ball and go home.

At this point, I think I'm not the only one who'd love to see more proof / hear more about it all and see a more careful and believable list. But if that doesn't occur (and it's fully up to Jason of course), I can't help but think that he's pretty well spoiled his name in the birding world and this will blow over pretty rapidly. Maybe it's better for all involved if it just sort of gets forgotten.
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I emailed Jason quite early on, before he had made any public comments, to inquire about details for his observations of five selected species—for the unbelievably high relevance to conservation efforts, should these observations have been correct. I asked about New Caledonian Nightjar, Manipur Bush-Quail, Pohnpei Starling, Duida Grass-Finch, and Bates's Weaver, and Jason confirmed that he was not claiming to have seen any of those five species, referring to a technical error, and mentioning that the error was detailed in his post here.
 
Martin Stervander said:
I emailed Jason quite early on, before he had made any public comments, to inquire about details for his observations of five selected species—for the unbelievably high relevance to conservation efforts, should these observations have been correct. I asked about New Caledonian Nightjar, Manipur Bush-Quail, Pohnpei Starling, Duida Grass-Finch, and Bates's Weaver, and Jason confirmed that he was not claiming to have seen any of those five species, referring to a technical error, and mentioning that the error was detailed in his post here.
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It seems like more than a technical error to claim to be the best birder in the world and claim to have seen 10,000 species and also have erroneously entered so many lost / impossible / potentially extinct species into iGoTerra. How do you say you've gotten to 10,000 and then say "oh no I haven't seen numerous species upon which my 10,000 is based?"

I still would love to see an accurate list. And it still seems odd to me to have "accidentally" ticked so many species that are nigh impossible.

I have errors in my list too, I understand that. But I haven't got any of that magnitude, and I'm not claiming anything based upon it either.

I am not trying to be particularly mean or accusatory, but I am really left just scratching my head at the whole situation.
 
pbjosh said:
It seems like more than a technical error to claim to be the best birder in the world and claim to have seen 10,000 species and also have erroneously entered so many lost / impossible / potentially extinct species into iGoTerra. How do you say you've gotten to 10,000 and then say "oh no I haven't seen numerous species upon which my 10,000 is based?"

I still would love to see an accurate list. And it still seems odd to me to have "accidentally" ticked so many species that are nigh impossible.

I have errors in my list too, I understand that. But I haven't got any of that magnitude, and I'm not claiming anything based upon it either.

I am not trying to be particularly mean or accusatory, but I am really left just scratching my head at the whole situation.
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I am not arguing against the gist of this; was just providing specific info on the Manipur Bush-quail!
 
MiddleRiver said:
Would we be having this witch burning if someone had just anounced 9000 or even 9900?
It's all so very weird to me. Birding as an olympic sport.
Sorry...
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I haven’t so far got involved in this discussion but cheating in listing at any level, from hoaxing/stringing to inflating totals always attracts condemnation. Rightly so in a sport that very much runs on trust.

The thing that tends to expose a stringer is that to be worth it the cheat has to be over something significant - and that means it is always something already under sharper than usual focus.

In this case I haven’t seen a witch burning, rather a civilised but quite evidence based and conclusive exposure of extensive sharp practice at the least, exposed by a long list of near unthinkable claims that together look truly impossible.

John
 
MiddleRiver said:
Would we be having this witch burning if someone had just anounced 9000 or even 9900?
It's all so very weird to me. Birding as an olympic sport.
Sorry...
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It is a sport, or at least more than a hobby, to some.

World listing isn't something that appeals to me, nor to many birders I know, but I can be vaguely competitive at local patch or year-listing level amongst friends.

However, having played more traditional sports and been competitive (what's the point playing if you're not going to compete & try to win?), I get it. It's what makes some people tick, gives them a reason to get up in the morning.
 
Yeah, I was being a bit flippant. I bird to watch nature but I do get a charge out of seeing new species.

And Mann does appear to have been in a hurry or sloppy or... And no it's not a full-on witch-hunt.

But it does get pretty snarky quickly and it just seems like the worst of birding. I've been to a twitch or two -well, to be honest, to exactly TWO- and I hated it. Folks elbow to elbow and alpha-birders pushing to the front to get the bird/picture. No thanks...

To each his own I guess!
 
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Farnboro John said:
I haven’t so far got involved in this discussion but cheating in listing at any level, from hoaxing/stringing to inflating totals always attracts condemnation. Rightly so in a sport that very much runs on trust.

The thing that tends to expose a stringer is that to be worth it the cheat has to be over something significant - and that means it is always something already under sharper than usual focus.

In this case I haven’t seen a witch burning, rather a civilised but quite evidence based and conclusive exposure of extensive sharp practice at the least, exposed by a long list of near unthinkable claims that together look truly impossible.

John
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Indeed John,
I wonder, would this imposter have been unfrocked without BF?
 
To the "best birder" discussion: in the normal field, it's about the hearing of calls. I will always be beaten fair and square by all the people who are not tone deaf - I can spend days and days browsing sites, yet I won't be the rarity finder, because most are first found on calls (at least where I am birding usually) and I just suck at that, years after years, no amount of listening seems to be helpful.

But I don't think this really applies in world birding. How many of these big listers are really finding the birds themselves and how many are just paying guides to find them? Show me a birder who does 10000 without any guides and then we can talk, but the length of the list really is down to money when you can pay people to do it for you and the only thing you need is to survive being there.
 
Andy Adcock said:
Indeed John,
I wonder, would this imposter have been unfrocked without BF?
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There was also huge discussion on Facebook, in some threads a little more hostile than here.
In my view, there are three main reasons for the "witch hunt", which I feel was partly deserved, yet I don't feel good about it.
First, the glaring errors in the list. There are like two dozen species that are downright impossible. That's quite a lot! If there are already so many very apparent errors, how many more are there, that aren't as glaring to the outsider? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? It's impossible to know.
Secondly, the (apparently) self-written statement that describes him as "recognized as the best birder in the world". There are two major flaws in this statement. The obvious one being the term "best birder in the world", which is completely undefined, but can barely be ascertained by the number of species you claim to have seen. The other less obvious term is 'recognized', as Jason is a ghost. Hundreds of people have commented on this, virtually no-one knows who he his. In order to be recognized as someone you need to noticed first, which certainly wasn't the case here.
And last but not least, the timing was extremely unfortunate. Getting to 10.000 species is the achievement of a lifetime. The fact that two people reached that number at pretty much the time is very surprising. On one hand, there's Peter Kaestner who has been open about all his plans and sightings for many years, he even gave us a detailed plan on how and when he wanted to find and celebrate number 10.000. Then suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, comes this ghost Jason Mann and sprints past Peter on the last inches of the race. How is this not going to be a major topic for anyone watching?
 
Andy Adcock said:
I know some, who I would call, less than capable as birders yet they still have a World list of c7K and above.
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Actually I am only on about 3k. 😀

Of course, the size of list is in no way a badge of competence but I know plenty of big listers who are very good and probably more people who are jealous of those with more time and money (including me) than big listers who are incompetent... There are some of those though.

All the best

Paul
 
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Paul Chapman said:
Actually I am only on about 3k. 😀

Of course, the size of list is in no way a badge of competence but I know plenty of big listers who are very good and probably more people who are jealous of those with more time and money (including me) than big listers who are incompetent... There are some of those though.

All the best

Paul
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My list is less than 4K but I've spent a lot of time in Asia, returning to the same regions and many of my return trips, yielded less than twenty new birds, Bangladesh last year, only three. I'm coming to the end of the the road so doubt I'll ever make 5K but I could probably do it in three trips to South America which I've largely, neglected.

I've been trying to see some of the rare and or unusual species in the last couple of years which has also contributed to a lack of new species overall.
 
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I've set myself at target of 2500 not sure if I'll achieve it in the past I've gone for quality over quantity on birding hols.
 
I’m just over 2,800 and could break 3,000 this year, depending on where I choose to go. Paraguay is booked for late March and early April, and I’m dreaming of where to go later in the year. Asia sounds exciting.

Dave
 
jhopkins said:
For all its faults, BF has an amazing reputation for what one might call 'forensic birding'!
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I feel like other folks would have figured out sooner or later, once people actually scrutinized his list. On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of sites link this forum thread (which was super weird for me, as most other sites I go to never mention this site), so this site certainly is the first one to do so.
 

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