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It,s WAR (1 Viewer)

You're a good man pe'rigin. But it was your freinds gruff approach to the subject and the inference that I was a complete ignoramus that got my hackles up, he also had the bare'facedness to imply that I was in some way longing to get a glimse of his 600mm. ( I'm sorry to disappoint the big guy....but I prefer a tight fish-eye)
 
You're a good man pe'rigin. But it was your freinds gruff approach to the subject and the inference that I was a complete ignoramus that got my hackles up, he also had the bare'facedness to imply that I was in some way longing to get a glimse of his 600mm. ( I'm sorry to disappoint the big guy....but I prefer a tight fish-eye)


Clearly Ian you need to re-read my post to realise that it was a genaralised dig at all the people who continue the utterly pointless Canon v Nikon tosh, which quite frankly gets so tiresome.

I read lots comments on this forum where there is advice dished out about particular equipment by individuals that I know do not own, and have never owned/used the kit that they are slagging off.

Your title "It's War" appeared very much aimed at starting an argumentative thread, hence my harsh response.
 
...it was a genaralised dig at all the people who continue the utterly pointless Canon v Nikon tosh, which quite frankly gets so tiresome.


I agree that the whole Canon vs Nikon thing is tiresome. As a Nikon user I think both systems (I've used both in the past) are great and if you have one system, be it Nikon, be it Canon, then there is no need to slag off the other.
 
Utter TOSH!!

Clearly Ian you need to re-read my post to realise that it was a genaralised dig at all the people who continue the utterly pointless Canon v Nikon tosh, which quite frankly gets so tiresome..

I have no need nor wish to read your 'boorish' response to my innocent attempt to start a civilised thread. If you feel so strongly that the subject matter was indeed so pointless and tiresome then may I suggest that you find a thread that interests you.

I read lots comments on this forum where there is advice dished out about particular equipment by individuals that I know do not own, and have never owned/used the kit that they are slagging off.

It's the ''kicked ass'' thing is'nt it? You did'nt like me suggesting that your beloved Canon have been outdone by Nikon! Well!.....

If you are going to get upset over every derisory comment or bad review about equipment that you own!....

Your title "It's War" appeared very much aimed at starting an argumentative thread, hence my harsh response

So a title can invoke your sensitive nature into the need for an argument? (Hmmm!) It seems to me that we all have watch our 'P's & 'Q's on this forum just in case we hit one of your delicate nerves! Perhaps our opinions should be best kept to ourselves and we should never buy anything other than a superior brand of camera such as Canon so obviously is!!
 
It's a shame Canon lenses won't work on Nikon cameras and vice versa. That might change a few opinions, after all this illogical brand loyalty is often in defence of a considerably costly investment decision the buyer has made. Few people want to admit to having made the wrong one and are stuck down that road.
As for the manufacturers, they don't have loyalties. They just want you to part with your cash.
 
It's a shame Canon lenses won't work on Nikon cameras and vice versa. That might change a few opinions, after all this illogical brand loyalty is often in defence of a considerably costly investment decision the buyer has made. Few people want to admit to having made the wrong one and are stuck down that road.
As for the manufacturers, they don't have loyalties. They just want you to part with your cash.

Well it's funny you say that cos I believe once upon a time there was an adapter that allowed just that, I know I've seen it somewhere but can't remember where, not much help am I. :-O Maybe someone else does?

As for the whole brand thing, neither one is 'better' than the other, whichever setup you choose it is easily capable of giving you an excellent photo when all the elements (light, distance etc.) come together. I do think it's just swings and roundabouts (ironic coming from me I know).
Jaff
 
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I have no need nor wish to read your 'boorish' response to my innocent attempt to start a civilised thread. !

Ian

With respect I find it hard to reconcile the title of your thread "IT'S WAR" with your assertion that you are making an "innocent attempt to start a civilised thread". I cannot think of a more emotionally charged comment than saying "IT'S WAR". In my view your thread title exhibits a bit of the tabloid or football supporter mentality that lurks within many, no worries it's human 3:). I'm sorry but I do think your response is a little disingenuous.

It isn't war it's business ...pure and simple and we as consumers should just sit back and enjoy the benefits of good healthy competition.

As for the discussion Nikon v Canon it is, as I indicated, or alluded to in my other thread, a totally pointless debate and I think you will find that Nigel Blake an Andy Rouse are at idium on that...end of story. You might also consider that both these photographers in delivering their opinions have not specifically locked on specific issues to indicate any broad level of disagreement as you imply there is, which only serves to confuse matters for the buying public and runs a coach and horses through the argument you are trying to make. Of course it may remain that there is broad disagreement between Nigel and Andy although I doubt it. If you were trying to be reasonable you may have spotted that issues were covered from different perspectives and from that point of view you could have asked questions from Nigel or Andy to clarify. I imagine that if both photographers did some shooting of the same subject matter in identical circumstances using the same settings etc. and compared and contrasted their results there would be little argument between them....however that is a matter for them. If you read the threads properly you will find different conclusions about different things IMHO. Remember, some matters in photography are subjective and others can be measured.

From my own perspective and in my humble opinion what makes a quality photo has little to do with gear these days, most modern gear can produce outstanding results, it's the photographer that makes the biggest difference. All this stuff about image noise etc is all well and good but it's not going to make me chuck in my battered old 20D just because there is a "war" on between Nikon and Canon. When the time comes for me to get new gear I will of course read reviews (with half a mind on the reviewers interests/bias)and ask questions examine evidence, test equipment and then MAKE MY OWN MIND UP.8-P

In reading blurb on new eqiupment I always remind myself of the "emperors new clothes" we can learn much from such fairy tales. Don't get sucked in.

ps. You might also remember that Nigel Blake has frequently given his time on these forums in open debate and in PMs and offered excellent advice (of a kind you don't always get in books) in a manner which has served to improve the level of photography of a great many members including myself and we are all grateful to him for that. Being on top of the tree often brings with it a condition of not suffering fools gladly. I am not suggesting you are a fool but I think a certain level of respect can go a long way. Your true intent may be measured by your reply...if you choose to reply.

pps The best and most honest review of equipment (that is easily obtained) is usually made by the manufacturer when it is being replaced!!! ....well that's what I think 3:)

Regards

Adrian
 
Ian Latham;1098881]

None of this is helping my dilemma as a consumer.....I want to upgrade from a Nikon D50 to a useful birding set up between £2/3000 but I dont want to get caught in the crossfire. The D90 is just around the corner so why buy the D80?, the D300 warrants some decent glass which Nikon are short of around the 300/400mm mark.

Canon seem to have the best, and (judging from this forums gallery) the most popular set up with the 40D and a fare selection of good lenses around the £1000 mark (within budget)

This extract from my original thread opener was the basis for what I hoped would be a discussion about the merits of the new 40D from Canon with its range of 300mm-400mm lenses, and the lack of the equivalent lenses from Nikon.

I must point out that I bought my D50 after trying out the product with a comparison to the canon 400D from Jessops. I had no prior knowledge of digital cameras, but a much practiced mistrust of salespersons. When the salesman seemed to be heading in the direction of overkill for the Canon system (which was approximately £100 more than the Nikon), I bid him farewell and headed off to purchase the Nikon from another store.

I am the only person within my family and circle of friends who has ever been remotely interested in birdwatching or indeed photography, so having the ability to test either of these hobbies products has had to rely on retail outlets. The birding products are quite accessable for me, because I live close to both (In Focus) Martin Mere and (RSPB) Leighton Moss so I am able to get a hands on the gear and some decent advice into the bargain.

The camera world is (to me) a lot less helpful. I can of course purchase 'On Line', but I cannot test the product before I hand over my wad. My home is far from accident proof with two mad cats, hoards of drunken women coming and going etc, etc. If something gets broken then I'm either stuck with it or going to have to deal with the insurance sharks!

So my options are narrowed to the retail outlets.

I went into Jessops today to view the 40D and the 100-400mm lens (advertised within 'Amateur photographer'as being in stock). The 40D was there but the assistant tells me that only their larger city outlets keep the bigger, more expensive lenses to view (Preston needs a cathederal!)

I decided I had come this far and asked to hold and view the camera....off he went to find a key to the cabinet, which took 15 minutes because the manager had the only key and was'nt to be found. Finally, I was tentatively handed the 40D and I proceeded to give it the once over......it was noticably larger camera than my D50 but seemed well balanced, I tryed to imagine a bigger lens attached than the 17-85mm kit but with my largest lens being a 90mm macro I really could'nt get a fair comparison.

I remembered that one of the more consistant quibbles regarding the comparison with the Nikon D300 was that the LCD - though increased a 1/2 inch from the previous model (30D) had not increased in resolution. I asked the assistant to switch the camera on for me so as to check out the camera further (layout, AF etc). ''Oh, I'm sorry sir but we dont keep batteries in the cameras'' (no explaination as to why was forthcoming). I asked if they had any in the shop to put in, and away he went.........never to be seen again, because after ten minutes I was out of there!! (sure, I could have waited a futher ten minutes or even twenty but hey! lifes way to short!)

I rang around the remaining smaller outlets only to be told the same old story, that the products only achieve minimal profit and therefore not a viable stock item (all these little shops were Canon dealerships, just out of interest!).

My quest then continues......:-C

Any genuine advice will be gratefully appreciated (no trolls or hi-jackers please)
 
This extract from my original thread opener was the basis for what I hoped would be a discussion about the merits of the new 40D from Canon with its range of 300mm-400mm lenses, and the lack of the equivalent lenses from Nikon.

I must point out that I bought my D50 after trying out the product with a comparison to the canon 400D from Jessops. I had no prior knowledge of digital cameras, but a much practiced mistrust of salespersons. When the salesman seemed to be heading in the direction of overkill for the Canon system (which was approximately £100 more than the Nikon), I bid him farewell and headed off to purchase the Nikon from another store.

I am the only person within my family and circle of friends who has ever been remotely interested in birdwatching or indeed photography, so having the ability to test either of these hobbies products has had to rely on retail outlets. The birding products are quite accessable for me, because I live close to both (In Focus) Martin Mere and (RSPB) Leighton Moss so I am able to get a hands on the gear and some decent advice into the bargain.

The camera world is (to me) a lot less helpful. I can of course purchase 'On Line', but I cannot test the product before I hand over my wad. My home is far from accident proof with two mad cats, hoards of drunken women coming and going etc, etc. If something gets broken then I'm either stuck with it or going to have to deal with the insurance sharks!

So my options are narrowed to the retail outlets.

I went into Jessops today to view the 40D and the 100-400mm lens (advertised within 'Amateur photographer'as being in stock). The 40D was there but the assistant tells me that only their larger city outlets keep the bigger, more expensive lenses to view (Preston needs a cathederal!)

I decided I had come this far and asked to hold and view the camera....off he went to find a key to the cabinet, which took 15 minutes because the manager had the only key and was'nt to be found. Finally, I was tentatively handed the 40D and I proceeded to give it the once over......it was noticably larger camera than my D50 but seemed well balanced, I tryed to imagine a bigger lens attached than the 17-85mm kit but with my largest lens being a 90mm macro I really could'nt get a fair comparison.

I remembered that one of the more consistant quibbles regarding the comparison with the Nikon D300 was that the LCD - though increased a 1/2 inch from the previous model (30D) had not increased in resolution. I asked the assistant to switch the camera on for me so as to check out the camera further (layout, AF etc). ''Oh, I'm sorry sir but we dont keep batteries in the cameras'' (no explaination as to why was forthcoming). I asked if they had any in the shop to put in, and away he went.........never to be seen again, because after ten minutes I was out of there!! (sure, I could have waited a futher ten minutes or even twenty but hey! lifes way to short!)

I rang around the remaining smaller outlets only to be told the same old story, that the products only achieve minimal profit and therefore not a viable stock item (all these little shops were Canon dealerships, just out of interest!).

My quest then continues......:-C

Any genuine advice will be gratefully appreciated (no trolls or hi-jackers please)


I occasionally go to Martin Mere but do not have a 40D but have friends who do. I only have a 20D. I do have a 100-400 canon zoom. Since you are placed in a dilema and provided you can be patient I would be more than happy to let you test out my gear if we were to meet up. I am sure, or I would hope that with such a request you would get assistance with those who use Nikon gear. I will ask around.

I also worry about my gear. I live in Salford!

The next time I visit Martin Mere I will send you a PM if you wish to take me up on the offer.

regards

Adrian
 
I really don't understand this rush to defend the system you bought. Both Nikon and Canon make fine cameras and lenses. Competition is healthy! Then again I think it was a Canon President who said the various companies adherents were like football fans.

Ian there is a chance that Nikon will introduce a new version of the 80-400mm VR this year possibly at the PMA event in January. Of course this has been mooted for a while. I shot with the existing 80-400vr a few weeks ago and it is a decent lens.

if you elect to go for a 40d /100-400 IS set up then I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

FWIW the Nikon 300mm f4 is a fine lens. in need of VR though.
 
Ah, but those rare moments don't return for a second chance at them. We "upgrade" at a reasonable pace so that we don't miss that split second of opportunity when it arrives. If the elusive critters sat around on fence posts posing for the camera in the warm rays of sunset, much money would be saved. ;) Instead it's skulking around in the shadows under the trees with our $$$ 400mm, ISO 800, VR, and the best hardware our paychecks can provide. :D

(hmm...the post I was responding to disappeared...nice owl, anyhow)
 
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I also hope that some of the smaller manufacturers will get in on the act.

Definitely, but who's most likely to do it? Pentax? Panasonic? (gasp) Sony? (ack!) Do any of them really care much about this market, when the easy cash is mostly on the point-n-shoot end.
 
I have just read Nigel Blake's response, and IMO it does sound rather harsh. That said, the original posting is a bit juvenile. (Sorry Ian.)


Now that I have possibly alienated at least two forum members - though I hope not - I'll try and provide an answer.


Having owned a D200 for 2 years now, and previously owned mostly consumer grade bodies (D70, F90x, F80, etc), the move to a semi-pro grade body is more than just specs. The view finder is better, the build is better, and there are essential features such as mirror lock up, which you never knew you needed. I would never again buy a camera without MLU, which is essential for macro work, photomicrography (photography through a microscope) and so on. So my personal decision would be to go for a proper metal body camera with MLU.

I suppose it depends on what you want to achieve. £2-3K is a lot of money. And you can get fairly serious kit for that amount. Though I am a Nikon user, it pains me to say that Canon is probably better value for birding, at least in the low end. They have the brilliant 40D, and the 400mm F5.6 IS lens, which has no Nikon equivalent. The D80 is a well made camera, but plastic, and without MLU. Maybe the D80 works well for birds. A user would have to tell you, not me.

With luck some Nikon bird photographers can weigh in and make some sensible suggestions for kit, and then you can evaluate their answers. Maybe the D200 and 80-400mm zoom would do the business. Or maybe the focus is too slow? Hopefully someone will know.

My key interests are macro, and plants, not birds. Hence I don't want to give bad advice. (Or Uncle Nige' will sort me out. Eeek. |=)| ).
 
Ah, but those rare moments don't return for a second chance at them. We "upgrade" at a reasonable pace so that we don't miss that split second of opportunity when it arrives. If the elusive critters sat around on fence posts posing for the camera in the warm rays of sunset, much money would be saved. ;) Instead it's $$$, 400mm, ISO 800, VR, and the best hardware our paychecks can provide. :D

(hmm...the post I was responding to disappeared...nice owl, anyhow)

Sorry about that bkrownd, as you might have gathered for some reason the link did not work though clearly you it did for you? I still believe that great photos exist with what may be considered to be, by todays standards, substandered equipment. It is the photographer that makes the difference. Nigel Blake, Andy Rouse or Hughe Harrop (nice work Hughe) will pull off better stuff than me if I had a Mk111Ds and they had a box camera! Like I once said , I'm not chucking in my 20D till the red light dies like Arnie's eye in terminator. I don't think Canon or Nikon will go bust waiting for me either.o:D
 
With luck some Nikon bird photographers can weigh in and make some sensible suggestions for kit, and then you can evaluate their answers. Maybe the D200 and 80-400mm zoom would do the business. Or maybe the focus is too slow? Hopefully someone will know.

Since I don't try to track moving stuff I'd put my money into a more sensitive AF sensor first, rather than a faster AF motor. I'm fine with the AF motor speed as-is - my problem is almost always when autofocus flies by the subject on its way from one limit to the other.
 
Sorry about that bkrownd, as you might have gathered for some reason the link did not work though clearly you it did for you?

There were a couple misplaced "." that I edited out.

If the old camera still makes ya happy, you're a fortunate guy. :king: They always make good second bodies to carry your shorter lenses, as well.
 
Definitely, but who's most likely to do it? Pentax? Panasonic? (gasp) Sony? (ack!) Do any of them really care much about this market, when the easy cash is mostly on the point-n-shoot end.

Hmm, to be honest, I'd actually not considered the point and shoot end of the camera market. Good point.

This is a very interesting thread, by the way. As a Nikon user, I see Ian's point about the lenses but is it worth changing systems when, as it was pointed out to me on another thread (about the new Nikon 400, 500 and 600mm lenses) that the Nikon D200 and D300 can take the older AI/S lenses and these are superb glass and can be got for reasonable money second hand. Ok there's no autofocusing but metering is still there. That's what I'm going to do when I can afford it and find some for sale.
 
None of this is helping my dilemma as a consumer.....I want to upgrade from a Nikon D50 to a useful birding set up between £2/3000 but I dont want to get caught in the crossfire. The D90 is just around the corner so why buy the D80?, the D300 warrants some decent glass which Nikon are short of around the 300/400mm mark.

Canon seem to have the best, and (judging from this forums gallery) the most popular set up with the 40D and a fare selection of good lenses around the £1000 mark (within budget).

Whats next............anyone got a crystal ball?

Well hopefully at the end of this month Nikon will be making a few announcements:

A replacement for the D80? 12Mpix with perhaps more importantly the same sensor as the D300.

An updated 300/4 complete with VR II

An updated 80-400mm zoom with VR II and AF-S

An autofocus 400mm f5.6 complete with VR II and AF-S

Whilst we can all dream in the meantime Canon have released the 40D and have the equivalent of all the above lenses available now. Unless Nikon announce the D80 replacement and the VR II enabled 300/4 at the end of the month I fear it's time to switch allegiance to the dark side (the white side just doesn't sound the same 3:) )

The 40D and before it the 30D set-up complete with Canon's wider range of glass around the 400mm mark is as you correctly pointed out very popular for bird and wildlife photography. If Nikon choose not to update their 300/4, 80-400 or bring out a 400/5.6 I think it'll be safe to assume they've abandoned this niche market.

Depending upon the lenses you use with the D50 I think you're going to have to make a difficult choice. Personally I'm not convinced about VR/IS/OS etc..and would prefer to gain 2 or 3 stops through the use of a noise free sensor. Therefore I'd be prepared to wait and see how good the D80 replacement is. If it can produce detailed noise free images at ISO 800 the dark side may have to wait.

Based upon what is available now the best value for money is the 40D with either the Canon 300/4 IS and TC if you're mainly hand-holding or the 400/5.6 if you're happy to use a monopod/occasional hand holding.

BTW -during the last century an estimated 103,000,000 people were killed in conflict. Perhaps the title of this thread is a little over the top?
 
I have just read Nigel Blake's response, and IMO it does sound rather harsh. That said, the original posting is a bit juvenile. (Sorry Ian.)

There is no need to be sorry, you're quite right Leif!

It was meant as a light hearted approach to attract the attention of any passerby who cared to comment on the issue I originally raised. Which was about the lack of lens choices available to the Nikon system for the 'amateur' birding photographer with the budget I had stated.

If I need remind anyone that this is a forum for birding enthuisiasts and as such am highly unlikely to use the word 'war' other than in the context of 'a long continued struggle' within a thread written about my plight to test equipment I am willing to part with £2000 for.

The 'War' is between myself and the two major camera companies, that seem intent on offering the Amateur as little as possible as I have mentioned earlier on this thread.
 
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