Swarovski TLS 800 ? (1 Viewer)

I would appreciate some feedback/rec.s on using a Swarovski TLS 800 adapter on my ATS 65 HD. Will it be compatible with my Nikon D50 DSLR?
I'm hoping to start digiscoping this month and didnt want to get a compact camera unless it's absolutely more practical.

Thanks,

John

You will need a T-Mount to go between the TLS and the camera.

Bear in mind thuogh that it's not an ideal set up. The camera body is mounted directly to the scope body so there is no scope eyepeice and no camera lens. There is none of the magnification factor at all that you get with normal digiscoping. In effect the scope acts at a fixed lens at something around f11.

If you are certain you want to try the D50 then using it with a 50mm prime lens and a normal adapter such as the DCA is a better proposition as you at least get some magnification from the 50mm lens. Vignetting can be an issue though.

Overall it's much more practical for digiscoping to use a compact digital camera as you can use the camera optical zoom to reduce vignetting and add to magnification of the subject.

DSLR digiscoping can be done but isn't as easy as with a compact.

Thanks for your helpful input and comments. I am leaning more towards purchasing a compact camera and it's appropriate scope interface at this time. Seems to be a more practical set-up.
John

Swarovski 800nn TSL

IanF said:

Bear in mind thuogh that it's not an ideal set up. The camera body is mounted directly to the scope body so there is no scope eyepeice and no camera lens. There is none of the magnification factor at all that you get with normal digiscoping. In effect the scope acts at a fixed lens at something around f11.

If you are certain you want to try the D50 then using it with a 50mm prime lens and a normal adapter such as the DCA is a better proposition as you at least get some magnification from the 50mm lens. Vignetting can be an issue though.

Overall it's much more practical for digiscoping to use a compact digital camera as you can use the camera optical zoom to reduce vignetting and add to magnification of the subject.

DSLR digiscoping can be done but isn't as easy as with a compact.

Click to expand...

This is not correct.
The TSL is an 800mm lens between the scope and the camera.
It's adviced to use remote control and mirror-up function.
You will make perfect shots with this.
I use a Swarovski 80HD.

I also have had great success using the TLS800 together with a Swarovski ATS 80HD scope and either a Canon 400D or Canon 5D Mark 2

Some examples are here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jingbar/sets/72157609644017069/

Bob Thompson

steenh said:

This is not correct.
The TSL is an 800mm lens between the scope and the camera.
It's adviced to use remote control and mirror-up function.
You will make perfect shots with this.
I use a Swarovski 80HD.

Click to expand...

no the TLS is not an 800mm lens... it is an adapter tube containing lens element which allows you to connect an SLR camera to a Swarovski spotting scope giving focal length of 800mm at f9. I have used one of these and agree that it can deliver good results, assuming you have good light (essential with a fixed aperture of f9).

I agree with Pete. I have had one of these but the Kowa version. You need very good light, little movement in the birds and a slider mount on the tripod because it becomes rear heavy and difficult tp set up. In addition all the camera controls are manual, no AF etc. The results are mostly useless. Not qorth the effort or expense.

Since the early posts on this topic the world has moved on in a number of ways, and as a possible future purchaser of the TLS 800 I would welcome advice from anyone who can bring the issue up to date.

The main relevant development in the last few years has been the widespread introduction of Live View on DSLRs (I'm a Canon user so I'll stick to Canon terminology). This allows off-the-sensor viewing of the whole of the frame or of any selected portion at ×5 or ×10, so very accurate focusing is possible. Another benefit is that there is a mode of operation in LV whereby the "first curtain" is electronic with the mechanical second curtain following it, and no use made of the mirror. This generates even less vibration that conventional mirror lock, because only one shutter curtain is used, although of course it is still not completely vibrationless like a fully electronic shutter. I know from my experience of using long lenses that these developments make a big difference. Can anyone share experience of how they affect use of the TLS 800?

Another comment often made is that the TLS 800 on an 80mm scope gives an 800mm lens but it is rather slow – f/10, it would seem. Now, I would very often want to stop a long lens down about that far if I could, and with current-generation DSLRs having excellent high-ISO performance (I use my 5DII regularly at 3200), it really is not a problem to use that sort of aperture with a decently high shutter speed, provided you have a good tripod. That's quite a contrast to the P&S cameras used for through-the-eyepiece digiscopig where anything beyond about 200 gets pretty nasty. The other issue is what you can see through the finder with a lens that slow. Again, that't not a problem with Live View, where the finder gain can go high enough to give a nice bright image with very small amounts of light falling on the sensor.

Another issue is the weight and bulk of a DSLR, and I take the point that even with an adequate tripod and the right mounting kit, it's not an ideal setup. Hoever, we are starting to see EVIL cameras coming onto the market (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens), exemplified by the micro-4/3 system, and everyone expects to see Canon and Nikon move into this sector very soon with bodies onto which their DSLR lenses can be mounted with an adapter. An EVIL body is very much smaller and lighter than a DSLR, more comparable with a solid P&S like a Canon G-series Powershot, and thus no problem from the weight and balance point of view.

All this suggests that it is time to re-evaluate the TLS 800 and address the basic question at something rather better than an anecdotal level. That question is, how good optically is the TLS 800 on (for the sake of example, since I have one) an ATS80HD body? It would be really good to see that combo subjected to the sort of tests to which camera lenses are subjected on a variety of websites, such as Photozone and DPReview. Failing that, some properly set up test shots of an ISO 12233 lens test chart would probably tell us pretty quickly what we need to know. Any offers? The only piece of kit that I don't have to enable that test is the TLS 800 itself, but I'm not inclined to spend quite serious money only to find that it is a non-starter.

RS_RS said:

Since the early posts on this topic the world has moved on in a number of ways, and as a possible future purchaser of the TLS 800 I would welcome advice from anyone who can bring the issue up to date.

The main relevant development in the last few years has been the widespread introduction of Live View on DSLRs (I'm a Canon user so I'll stick to Canon terminology). This allows off-the-sensor viewing of the whole of the frame or of any selected portion at ×5 or ×10, so very accurate focusing is possible. Another benefit is that there is a mode of operation in LV whereby the "first curtain" is electronic with the mechanical second curtain following it, and no use made of the mirror. This generates even less vibration that conventional mirror lock, because only one shutter curtain is used, although of course it is still not completely vibrationless like a fully electronic shutter. I know from my experience of using long lenses that these developments make a big difference. Can anyone share experience of how they affect use of the TLS 800?

Another comment often made is that the TLS 800 on an 80mm scope gives an 800mm lens but it is rather slow – f/10, it would seem. Now, I would very often want to stop a long lens down about that far if I could, and with current-generation DSLRs having excellent high-ISO performance (I use my 5DII regularly at 3200), it really is not a problem to use that sort of aperture with a decently high shutter speed, provided you have a good tripod. That's quite a contrast to the P&S cameras used for through-the-eyepiece digiscopig where anything beyond about 200 gets pretty nasty. The other issue is what you can see through the finder with a lens that slow. Again, that't not a problem with Live View, where the finder gain can go high enough to give a nice bright image with very small amounts of light falling on the sensor.

Another issue is the weight and bulk of a DSLR, and I take the point that even with an adequate tripod and the right mounting kit, it's not an ideal setup. Hoever, we are starting to see EVIL cameras coming onto the market (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens), exemplified by the micro-4/3 system, and everyone expects to see Canon and Nikon move into this sector very soon with bodies onto which their DSLR lenses can be mounted with an adapter. An EVIL body is very much smaller and lighter than a DSLR, more comparable with a solid P&S like a Canon G-series Powershot, and thus no problem from the weight and balance point of view.

All this suggests that it is time to re-evaluate the TLS 800 and address the basic question at something rather better than an anecdotal level. That question is, how good optically is the TLS 800 on (for the sake of example, since I have one) an ATS80HD body? It would be really good to see that combo subjected to the sort of tests to which camera lenses are subjected on a variety of websites, such as Photozone and DPReview. Failing that, some properly set up test shots of an ISO 12233 lens test chart would probably tell us pretty quickly what we need to know. Any offers? The only piece of kit that I don't have to enable that test is the TLS 800 itself, but I'm not inclined to spend quite serious money only to find that it is a non-starter.

Click to expand...

I recently bought a TLS800 and am trying to get it to produce images of the quality I see around here. I have it on a 50D and it is mounted on a Manfroto tripod with a pistol grip head. I have taken to putting my camera bag on the tripod hook to dampen it. I am waiting for a balance rail to bring the C of G forward and until then I have to live with the sensitivity and instability unless the tripod legs are extended. In a wooden based bird hide it is a problem but I use a wireless remote and lock the mirror up so I can stand well back.

I have been practicing on birds in my garden.

This is the sort of image I get....... which is OK-ish.

I normally shoot with a 100-400 lens and get reasonable pictures but I would like to get some better than that using the scope (80HD) and adaptor.

And here is the rub. Its all manual.
Focusing: With the x5 & x10 you can get it down tight but you have to have a rigid platform or it jumps around and you cannot see the picture anyway (may improve with the rail). At the moment I don't have a rigid platform in the hide so it is very difficult.

Aperture/Exposure: The scope is F10. The camera does not show that (although it appears as F10 in Lightroom). It shows as 00 in the panel and you cannot change it - well I can't anyway. So far I have had my better results in Av (Canon Aperture priority AE) but I don't think they are anything to write home about. In Program mode the exposures are hopeless. All very overexposed (3 stops plus) and wasted. You cannot (easily?) change the exposure as it is paired with the aperture which is not read by the chip in the camera.

I have just started today to see what I can change and what I can't and I am a bit dissatisfied with what I have achieved. If I come out of the creative zone and use the fully automatic I cannot use the Live View screen which is no great advantage in manual focusing.

A bit disheartening really. I don't know enough about it to set everything up manually if that is the solution (which I suspect it may not be). And anyway, when you want take the picture of your bird you do not have time to start adjusting every knob and dial on the camera.

If anyone wants to offer advice I will be pleased to get it. My aim is to take pictures as good as the ones that other members have taken on this forum (and not to rely too much on Lightroom and CS4 to help me do it).

And as final shot I read somewhere you can use the 1.4 extender to give you something like 1250mm. You cannot, unless you tape up the contacts on your camera as it gives a error you need to switch off to clear.

Dale at Swarovski (digiscopingvideos on YT) offered me some advice:

I said:
Hi there - I have the TLS800 & 80HD which is connected to my Canon50D. So far I am not getting great shots as the camera cannot control exposure in Program Mode and if I use a selection from the (non) creative zone I lose my Live - view function and cannot use the x5 and x10 feature to get my focus spot on. Birds don't wait around to long so I don't have time to do a lot of adjustments - does anyone have an idea of how to make the best adjustments and program mode for a Canon DLSR?

He said:
if you set your camera to Aperture priority, the camera will choose a suitable shutter speed for that aperture (fixed f10). You can then vary your ISO in a compromise between shutter speed and image quality. I have a couple more videos that I will upload over the next few weeks which are bound to be of interest to you.

So P mode is out I guess and Av mode will have to do. I also asked what lens he used on the Canon in the UCA video. He says the 50mm 1.2. I might contemplate the 1.4 on price if I decide to go with the UCA instead of the TLS800. I might also consider giving up with the 50D/TLS800 and get a camera with powerful recomendations from experienced users here though.

I set up on my bird feeders this morning (in dreary weather) and tried Av as suggested with a variety of ISO settings. The camera set exposure and shutter.

High ISO resulted in very grainy images as I suspected it would. The photos were taken in RAW but have not been processed so they could improve. The two images here are taken from about 15 metres. Image 1 is ISO1250 and 1/60th - Image 2 is ISO800 and 1/30th.

TBH they are not as good as I want or hope. The images seen through the telescope with the eyepiece are great but they are not transferring to Camera using my settings and the TLS 800.

I know other FMs report good things from the TLS800 but I have yet to achieve them - especially in English summer lighting. :C

oggbad, that's really very helpful information, and I am grateful to you for sharing. Does not look terribly promising, I'm afraid. I have a couple of suggestions for you.

1. Get hold of a programmable focus-confirmation adapter. I expect you can get this in T-mount, but it does not matter if it is another mount X because you can then add a dumb X to T-mount adapter. This will enable focus confirmation, which may help a bit, and also report the aperture correctly once you have programmed it.

2. You may actually be better off using M rather than Av, and using partial metering, and even then some compensation may be necessary relative to the meter reading – weird things happen in metering systems with very small or very large aperture lenses when there is no way of telling the camera what the aperture is, but (1) may help with this.

3. With your 100~400, and even more so if you use it with an Extender, hook your camera up to a laptop and use EOS Utility to drive it. This will enable you to focus in Live View without touching the camera, so you do not generate the vibration associated with pressing the AF button and you can actually see what you are doing. This won't help with the scope, I'm afraid, and it's not a very robust setup for field use, but you should be able to try it out for bird-feeder shots.

Please keep posting your experiences. You are not very far away, and it might be of interest to meet – I live at Ashleworth, within walking distance of the famous Ham.

Will an AF confirm adapter still work at the apertures oggbad will be using ..f10 was it ? I have an SW 80ED and tried an AF confirm adapter and i can just get it to work ok at f7.5 ok, but wouldnt f10 be pushing it a bit ? You never know though.

oggbad..that greenfinch pic, is that a 100% crop ? If so, its not quite as bad as you think. Not many photos are left at 100%, and if there some, not many will be sharp with stacks of detail.

A little extra PP work at the moment might help you you get the IQ on the pics you desire.

Is this any better ? I ran this through ADOBE CS4

I'll post the photo this time :t:

Not a great deal of difference, i grant you, but when you get your kit sorted the way you want, it will all improve anyway

Tls800

Hi All,

I take tens of thousands of photos with the TLS800 every year with a variety of cameras including the Canon 5Dii, 7D, 550D, 1000D and Nikon D300s and D3.

I am by no means a good photographer, but I really enjoy it and get some nice results. Here are a pile of examples on my blog:
http://alpinebirds.blogspot.com/search/label/TLS800

Imange quality:
The TLS800 was designed to optimally fit with the telescope so the results are excellent. We had an external laboratory test the TLS800 on an STM80HD against various telephoto lenses with and without converters (all on a Canon 5Dii). The results astounded us in that the TLS800 was certainly the equal to the telephotos, being markedly better than the zoom telephoto with converter and only really pipped by the huge prime lens. Unfortunately, I cannot distribute the results, but I am confident that tests by independent camera experts would deliver much the same results.

At the very least, because the TLS800 is designed as a complete optical system with the Swaro scopes, the image quality is markedly better than system that have not been specifically designed to work together (i.e. regular digiscoping).

Camera setup:
I firmly believe that Aperture Priority is by far the best way to use the TLS800. The cameras I mentioned above all do a decent job of producing an appropriate shutter speed. If you move in to live view on the canons, you can select where the camera is metering from to make sure that the subject is metered. If you would like to tweek the exposure then (in canon live view) half depress the shutter release so the camera shows the shutter speed and then rotate one of the wheels to adjust the exposure up or down (on the 5Dii it is the large wheel on the back).

As RS_RS so rightly pointed out, live view in the canons can make a huge difference to photographing at low shutter speeds (<1/800s!). By eliminating mirror flap, you eliminate a major source of vibration.

I only really use Manual when I have a complex lighting situation where the background is unevenly illuminated and my subject is moving around within this space. Then I can set the exposure to the bird and not (really) worry about what is happening in the background (i.e. taking the risk to over or underexpose elements of the background or negative space).

Physical setup:
The more stable your setup, the more you are able to limit vibration in the system. Taking sharp photos at a focal length of 800mm (or 1280mm on APS-C) is no easy task, regardless of what lens you are using. While a good tripod is necessary, I would hazard to say that the most important factor is that the system is balanced. Without some sort of telescope rail (supported at the foot and under the prism) or at the very least a balance beam, you are always fighting to keep the system in place. This introduces enough vibration to completely destroy lots of photos.

Depth of field:
Depth of field in an optical system is controlled by three main variables: aperture, distance from subject, and focal length. Essentially, a 400mm lens at f10 would produce a depth of field of 26cm at 20m. An 800mm lens at f10 would have a 6cm DOF at 20m (800mm f4 = 1cm at 20m), and there would only be a 2.4cm DOF at 20m when at 1280mm f10 (TLS800 or Telephoto 800mm on APS-C). The higher the focal length, the shallower the depth of field and the harder it is to get perfect focus. This is regardless of what type of lens you are using.

The best lens in the world:
The best objective lens in the world is the famous GTBF lens. Go there by foot. If you have the option, get closer. If you are able to get closer and have a 200mm lens, then use it. It will give you the option of a deeper depth of field (easier to focus/autofocus), needs less light, will give a higher shutter speed, you can use a lower ISO, and is probably lighter and more portable. If you cannot get close enough then everything else is a compromise.

At the moment, I am snowed under with work, but would be happy to answer your questions in a few days.

Kind regards and happy birding,
Dale

btw, last night I loaded a short video of a Gurneys Pitta I filmed last week in Thailand using a TLS800 and Canon 5D mark II

Thanks for all your comments folks - and especially Dale for his background knowledge and technical expertise.

I am still working the issues because I am not getting the results I should. That is either down to my equipment or technique.

I obtained a Swarovski balance rail to help eliminate the instability. As a consequence I can definitely recommend not getting the Swarovski Telescope Balance Rail to fit on a Manfrotto Joystick Tripod Head Mn222 - or a head with a similar foot plate as it will not fit. However the Swarovski Telescope Rail can be disassembled and have a Manfrotto foot plate attached so as soon as mine arrives I can close the instability out of my equation.

I have looked at Dale's figures for DOF and for my camera (Canon 50D) my 800mm Scope and TLS800 with (fixed) F10 stop and the calculator used gives me 23cm (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html) not 6 cm. This seems a reasonable margin. At 100m the DOF is 5.94m which even I should be able to hit inside. So far at least I am not.

Using Av I am getting pictures which are not good enough but it seems to be the only setting that works. If the balance rail helps with fine focusing that will make a difference. ISO settings are not really making much of a difference - well not enough to assure me that they are the solution anyway.

My plan of attack is to use the rail. If that improves things I will see if that is acceptable to me. If not I will try a 5D Mkii as it has a great reputation.
I will also try a UCA and perhaps a 50mm lens to get some more auto control as manual is not working for me so far. And perhaps the solution is a UCA and a different camera - and for that I will be asking for suggestions.

Dale - i watched some of your videos, and you say you can change your aperture when the scope is mounted, but i thought scopes were fixed apertures ? My SW80 ED certainly is ( f7.5 ) and consequently, i cannot change aperture on my Canon 40D, so can you explain how this is possible with your ST scope and DSLR ?



Thanks

If the bird is not filling the viewfinder you are too far. You need to get closer otherwise it will be very difficult to get precise manual focus. If you cant get closer try focusing on something larger at/near the same distance as the bird.

I eventually gave up using a dslr with dedicated adapter for digiscoping as the results just weren't worth the hassles of larger/heavier kit and manual focus. A modern pocket cam used for digiscoping under the right conditions has more than sufficient quality for 8x10 or A4 prints and you can still use the scope visually bewteen photo ops too.

Musoman said:

Dale - i watched some of your videos, and you say you can change your aperture when the scope is mounted, but i thought scopes were fixed apertures ? My SW80 ED certainly is ( f7.5 ) and consequently, i cannot change aperture on my Canon 40D, so can you explain how this is possible with your ST scope and DSLR ?
Thanks

Click to expand...

Hi Musoman, if you are using the TLS800, you only have the option of a fully open aperture (what you want anyway). When you use an objective lens on the camera, behind the scope's ocular, you then have the option of changing the camera's objective lens aperture (to fully open).
Kind regards,
Dale

oggbad said:

Thanks for all your comments folks - and especially Dale for his background knowledge and technical expertise.

I am still working the issues because I am not getting the results I should. That is either down to my equipment or technique.

I obtained a Swarovski balance rail to help eliminate the instability. As a consequence I can definitely recommend not getting the Swarovski Telescope Balance Rail to fit on a Manfrotto Joystick Tripod Head Mn222 - or a head with a similar foot plate as it will not fit. However the Swarovski Telescope Rail can be disassembled and have a Manfrotto foot plate attached so as soon as mine arrives I can close the instability out of my equation.

I have looked at Dale's figures for DOF and for my camera (Canon 50D) my 800mm Scope and TLS800 with (fixed) F10 stop and the calculator used gives me 23cm (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html) not 6 cm. This seems a reasonable margin. At 100m the DOF is 5.94m which even I should be able to hit inside. So far at least I am not.

Using Av I am getting pictures which are not good enough but it seems to be the only setting that works. If the balance rail helps with fine focusing that will make a difference. ISO settings are not really making much of a difference - well not enough to assure me that they are the solution anyway.

My plan of attack is to use the rail. If that improves things I will see if that is acceptable to me. If not I will try a 5D Mkii as it has a great reputation.
I will also try a UCA and perhaps a 50mm lens to get some more auto control as manual is not working for me so far. And perhaps the solution is a UCA and a different camera - and for that I will be asking for suggestions.

Click to expand...

Hi Oggbad,

estimating a depth of field is plagued with how critical you are on what is perfect focus. The Rayleigh limit that we used in the calculation is know to be rather conservative. I do not know the calculator on the other website and what assumptions they make (assumptions are always made), but the smaller the image print is, the greater the depth of field appears. Pixel-peepers would tend to choose a more conservative estimate.

I am not clear on why you would definitely not recommend the telescope rail that is designed to support the scope in two positions. It fits directly in to many tripod heads, and those that dont, can simply be screwed on to the tripod head's own base plate.

The 5D mark II is an awesome camera and its big advantage for you would be that you can reliably use a higher ISO with well controlled image quality loss. The full format 5D mark II will, however, not work with a 50mm objective behind an ocular. You will need about an 80mm objective to remove all vignetting. If you are considering a 5DII, stick with the TLS800 for the awesome optical quality.

Happy digiscoping,
Dale