Willow Tits going down the pan (1 Viewer)

Poecile said:

Right, here we go again (clicks me knuckles!).

This one is a real tricky photo. Very unhelpful angle. Objectively, it's too close to call, so I'm going to have to be subjective about it, and it looks like it's probably a Marsh for some of the reasons already pointed out that appear to be in the photo (structure, cheek, wing etc). But you can't see any of the clinching suite of features clearly enough to be certain. It just looks 'marshy' to me, though.

A few reiterations though:

Forget the bib size thing as a feature, it's bollox. I've never found it helpful at all due to massive variation.
Same goes for crown gloss.
Also the likelihood of coming to feeders. I saw this listed as an id aid in a Collins book yesterday, yet it is complete rubbish. Willows are just as addicted to feeders as Marsh, and will use them if they are close to their territory.
Pale cutting edges on the mandible: this has yet to be validated, but my straw polls of handling several hundred Marsh this year says that it holds good for that species. I've not seen it on a Willow yet, but I've not had many in the hand since I started looking for it. Lighting can afect this feature though, especially on photos. This bird does seem to have a pale edge on the upper mandible though.

With some of these photos, you just can't tell. What is noticeable though is that virtually all of the ones posted on here turn out to be Marsh. Just shows you how bad things have got for Willows, in that they don't even seem to be around to confuse people anymore.

One more thing - the pale tips to the greater coverts, giving that weak wingbar effect, that's a good hint that it's a first-winter. Adults *usually* have uniform greater coverts.

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Thanks Poecile. I've picked this up and moved this from the ID section to a new thread as it isn't really an ID issue. We might disagree on climate change, but we seem to agree on Marsh / Willows in most respects. I do most of my birding in the SE (particularly Norfolk) and would like to pick up on Poecile's point of Willow's going down the pan in the SE. I think they are. Really badly. In fact I think their almost extinct down here. I spend a lot of time looking for Willow Tits because I've suspected this for several years that they're doing badly. I must have seen about 200-300 Marshes last year and can only be certain about seeing 1 Willow Tit.

People do realise this, but I think the ID confusion between Willow and Marsh has partially obscured just how bad things are (no discredit to birders intended, I still cock-up on them). I suspect things are a bit better up north, where in places they still outnumber Marsh.

This thread is really a plea to birders to contribute what they know about seperating these species and also to "gen-up" on the features that do seperate them. Feel free to dispute what I'm saying about them going down the pan as I still have a real difficulty seperating these species at times and would like to learn more.

Some useful ID discussions can be found on the following threads:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=78391
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=72210
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=72723
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=53216

Some also contain sound files and useful comparison photos.

This has been mentioned in other threads, but my impression of spending a lot of time with these and other woodland birds is that Willow Tits are now effectively extinct in East Anglia, the Home Counties and SE, the south Midlands and the South Coast. There are a couple of pairs at one or two sites in e.g. Norfolk, but these wont last much longer.

Remaining stronghold areas seem to be Notts, South Yorks, North Lincs (for now) and E Yorks (but declining very fast), W Yorks and parts of Cheshire and Lancs. I'm not sure either way about W Midlands or north of N Yorks, Wales or the SW. Scotland have never really had significant populations of either.

Marsh seem to be stable now, after a large decline, and are actively expanding in areas like Yorkshire, and doing well in East Anglia and the South. Any sign of expansion in Scotland?

There is an increasing problem with identification, as few people now are familiar enough with either species, but especially Willow, to identify one with sufficient reliability. This is not helped by confusing and conflicting info in bird guides, which the id threads have shown up. I'd suggest that Willow Tit should be a description species for counties south of lincs and Notts, but that probably wouldn't do much good as it would discourage submission of records for one thing, and for another I don't think that many county committees would be much better at identification (no offence to them, but they're in the same boat as anyone else). It's hard to see a solution. The threads above are probably the best set of i.d. guides for the 2 species available anywhere, however, at least for non-ringers not planning on using the tail gradation technique. Virtually all of the field guides are not very good at all, and some of the features in those threads are not published anywhere.

The British race of Willow Tit is quite different from the other races, and is probably well on the way to species status. It's certainly a distinct form. But I think it could well become extinct, totally, within a few decades.

The RSPB has done some work on why they are declining so massively, but the results are not very conclusive so far. Predation (especially of nests) and competition don't seem to be strong factors, but the study might not have been rigorous enough to be clear on this. My own hunch is that habitat loss is going to be a major factor. Willow Tit habitat requirements are still very poorly understood. Thie preferred habitat is still largely uncertain - is it woodland, is it scrub, is it wetland scrub? All we know is that they rely on dead wood to excavate nests, which implies a reliant on areas with plenty of birch. They do seem to be reliant on shrubs and birch on damp areas, or on what used to be called 'wasteland', but is now often called 'brownfield'. The fact that the past 25 years has seen massive pressure on brownfield for development in the south, with almost all of it turning into rabbit-hutch housing estates and Tescos, whereas the areas mentioned above as strongholds still have large areas of brownfield (old mines, quarries, contaminated sites etc) and less development until recently, is possibly suggestive. However, with the regeneration and escalating housing and land prices in the old industrial north gathering speed, this brownfield is being lost at an increasing rate. This could be the end for Willow Tits. Their life cycle revolves around being largely sedentary on territories for life, with low dispersal distances and local recruitment. This requires a network of sites to support a regional population, so that new birds can quickly replace those that die. If you lose the network, and are limitted to just a couple of breeding sites, then there is no recruitment from outside once the territorial birds die. I think this is what's happening. Loss of habitat at a landscape level, probably allied to increased competition from other tits for nest sites and possibly food, predation by more woodpeckers and jays and magpies, decline in deadwood (how often is a birch left to die and rot in southern English parks nowadays?) and possibly an increase in deer grazing on the shrub diversity that they rely on for year-round food.

Poecile has touched on something that concerns me locally. Woodland management entails chopping down trees to the base and scattering the logs. Would it not be possible to leave say a proportion of dead trunk in the ground for to rot and eventually provide possible nests sight for a variety of birds.
As primarily a woodland birdwatcher I cannot express enough the value of dead trees.

I have to say that, locally, the two species choose different habitats - I've seen them together in a mixed flock on only one or two occasions. I can, also, only recall (from memory) seeing Willow Tit in my local broad-leaved wood on one occasion.

Most sightings I've had of Willow Tits have been in scrub or overgrown hedges. Marsh Tits are almost always in or close to the woods.

They do exist in the same habitat in a few woods, but you almost never get marsh in the waterside veg surrounding the new lakes in country parks etc., where Willow are common in S Yorks. Overgrown waterside hedges and scrub seem good habitat for willow, that's true. Water usually seems to be involved. Marsh will exist in such ribbon-like habitat though, even without many mature trees, such as along the dry valleys you get in the Downs and Wolds. Both rely on shrubs, and a good diversity of them, as that provides their year-round food in the form of fruits and seeds (which they both hoard). They need the variety so that they have food at different fruiting/seeding times, as they are stuck on their territory for life so it has to provide everything they need all year-round - they can't just fly off to a feeder a mile away like a Great Tit can.

Marsh seem to prefer a mature open tree canopy somewhere in the works, overlying the shrubs. This might be for nest sites. Someone has suggested renaming them:

Marsh Tit = Shrub Tit
Willow Tit = Scrub Tit

A bit too similar, but better than their present names!

Presumably, Marsh Tit was named before the species were recognised as different and must have referred as much to where the Willow Tit lived.

Incidentally, I've not really seen any preference for water in my local Willow Tit's habitat other than the usual ditches that occur at the bottom of most field hedges, etc.

Marsh Tit is extinct around me, (Wirral) Willow Tit rapidly heading the same way. I saw a couple of Willow Tits at Moore last week and they were the first capped tits I've seen in 10 years, bar one frustratingly un identified one in my garden a couple of years back.

Willow Tits can be found in Notts around mature gravel pits etc. They seem to prefer waterside 'scrub' ie. where Willow, Alder and Birch predominate. Agree that Marsh prefer decidous woodland.

It's quite a long time since I've seen a Willow Tit. I used to see them a lot when I was growing up in Northamptonshire (1980s) where they were quite common in damp areas of scrub and hedgerow - habitat that still seems reasonably plentiful there. I used to sometimes send in records but these weren't included in any reports because Willow Tit was regarded as too common in those days. I think Willows are still found in Northants but are uncommon. Marsh seem to be fairly numerous still in the right habitats.

Interesting that they've become so rare in Norfolk. I worked at RSPB Strumpshaw Fen in the early 1990s when both Marsh and Willow Tits were fairly common on the reserve (maybe 5-10 pairs of each, if I remember correctly).

Jane Turner said:

Marsh Tit is extinct around me, (Wirral) Willow Tit rapidly heading the same way. I saw a couple of Willow Tits at Moore last week and they were the first capped tits I've seen in 10 years, bar one frustratingly un identified one in my garden a couple of years back.

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Did Marsh used to be common there? Someone told me that Willow are still found around Stockport, but never had Marsh.

I used to have Willow in my garden in E yorks, but there are no confirmed breeding records for the whole county since about 2000. Not that many people are reporting in that county, mind. But, like in Northants, the habitat is still there and apparently unchanged. Willow also used to be common where i am now in far E Mids, even just 20 years ago, but they are extinct now.

Marsh Tit was always been rare on Wirral - though it used to be common in Cheshire.

The Marsh I saw at Red Rocks remains one of the most surprising birds I have ever seen there - I expect I have more chance of a second Great-spotted Cuckoo than another Marshie!

Both can be found here in Gloucestershire but Willow is very rare. Both occur together in the woodland around the village of Brierley and this is where the county year listers go to get Willow, and while they are there, Marsh although the latter does occur a little bit more readily at other sites in the county.

Jane Turner said:

Marsh Tit was always been rare on Wirral - though it used to be common in Cheshire.

The Marsh I saw at Red Rocks remains one of the most surprising birds I have ever seen there - I expect I have more chance of a second Great-spotted Cuckoo than another Marshie!

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They do sometimes turn up in unexpected places. odd ones have been seen in hedges out in the fens etc, well away from any breeding birds or woodland. They even turn up at Spurn sometimes (about half a dozen records i think), which is about as remote from woodland as you can get in Britian, being 25 miles from the nearest wood and 30 from the nearest breeding birds. The vast majority, probably 99% don't disperse more than 5 km though, with something like 95+% being under 2km.

Poecile said:

They do sometimes turn up in unexpected places. odd ones have been seen in hedges out in the fens etc, well away from any breeding birds or woodland.

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This one was torn between a sandstone wall, some sand dunes and a Phragmites reed bed!

i was under the impression that parts of bedfordshire & Buckinghamshire still have a few left.I am sure i read an article about it not so long ago,i will see if i can find it somewhere.

robert burgess said:

i was under the impression that parts of bedfordshire & Buckinghamshire still have a few left.I am sure i read an article about it not so long ago,i will see if i can find it somewhere.

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I'm pretty sure they've gone from there now too. There might still be the odd pair, but the collapse in the E Mids has been very rapid in the past 10 years. So even if there was a dozen or so pairs 5 years ago, there wont be now. For example, John Clark mentions half a dozen sites in Huntingdonshire in his 1996 avifauna, with around 20 pairs or more. There were 8 sites in the 2002 Cambs bird report, with 6 birds together at one. In 2003 they were seen at 7 sites. But by 2004 there was just one bird found in the whole county, which caused a twitch. In 2005 just 2 records of single birds, and none as far as I know in 2006. Beds and Norfolk are just next door, so they're likely to have gone the same way just as quickly.

Just out of interest how do you tell the difference?

I saw a Marsh/Willow Tit last year at Leighton Moss. Several other birders were there as well but nobody could positively ID it. Reading my guide I came to the conclusion it was a Willow. But only because the guide said it was more likely to be Willow if it was seen near a marsh, contrary to the name?
P.S. It wasn't singing so couldn't tell by it's song. Not that I could have anyway.

Eddie: try the four ID threads listed by Ilya in the first post here.

I have just had a look through my essex bird report for 2005(the 2006 edition will not come out until jan 2008)
under Willow Tit it states
Scare,sedentary resident.Much decreased.Red List Species
Sawbridgeworth Marsh 3rd March One
After Two Successive years with two records,just one received in 2005 with the observer commenting that it was "just in Essex!"
Sadly,it seems almost inevitable that it will not be too long before the first blank year occurs.


Hardly Promising for the species at this end i would say
I don't have any hard facts regarding beds/bucks but i was under the impression from a recent publication that there were some left but numbers i am unable to tell you.Once i find it i will let you know.But it doesn't look too promising for essex!

Nutshell i.d. guide, in no order:

Underparts - warm buff and fluffy-looking for willow, pale (except the flank) and sleek for marsh (which are almost white on the belly).

Bill - pale cutting edges to mandibles for marsh, all dark for willow (often easy to see at close quarters)

wing - Willow usually has a pale wing panel, but quite a few marsh do too, while some willow don't. Unreliable and suggestive only.

Cap - forget any idea about glossiness. It's a waste of time looking for it.

Bib - ditto with bib size.

Head shape - willow often looks like it's got a big head, as the nape is usually 'fuller'. But both birds can fluff up or sleek down at will.

Cheeks - one of the best features i use. Willow's cheeks seem mostly uniform off-white, giving a long-cheeked appearance, adding to the effect of the big head. Marsh mostly have some kind of demarcation at the ear covert between the front bit and back bit of the cheek. The front bit, the cheek proper, under the eye, is off-white like Willow. But behind the ear covert on the sides of the neck it's obviously dirty white or very pale grey-brown. This is in no field guides, although Collins alludes to it (without illustrating it). This feature is usually obvious at mid distance.

Tail - tail gradation only useful in the hand with fresh birds.

Call - if it goes 'pitchoo', like a sneeze, it's a marsh. If it does anything else, any buzzing dzee dzee or loud 'pit' calls, it could be either. On the whole though, willow are more buzzier, but it's extremely unreliable.

Song - willow = a high 'siu siu siu', marsh has a bewildering variety: chip-chip-chip..., syup-syup-syup..., jug-jug-jug..., piddiwayoo-piddiwayoo-piddiwayoo..., and everything in between. Quality sounds like a great tit, whereas rhythm sounds like a coal tit.

Juveniles - only safely seperable on juvenile begging calls (willow = dee doo der, marsh = sirdidit). Otherwise, forget it.

habitat - both will use same habitat, especially in winter. Willow always excavates own hole in dead wood, often birch or willow. So if it's in a natural rot hole or a box, it'll be marsh. But marsh also use dead wood crevices in birch and will oust willow from their own holes, so be careful. Marsh also clean out and will deepen natural holes, so if it's carrying out chips, it isn't necessarily a willow.

Behaviour - both very similar. Both love feeders.