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Bins or a scope ? (1 Viewer)

S

Simmo1111

Well-known member
Hi everyone,

I am starting to do more birding in hides on wader scrapes and the like, obviously we are now talking greater distances when it comes to being able to positively id birds. I am currently using a pair of 8x42 Vortex Vipers which are a great pair of bins but not so great with the longer distances. Many people are using scopes of course but my birding is more sort of 80% woodland birding and 20% reserve work on the scrapes. Therefore buying a good scope would possibly be a poor choice of the use of my money.

I was just wondering about the Birdforum folk's thoughts here.

Should I get a scope or would I be better getting a pair of high magnification bins, there would be no real issue concerning the problem of being able to hold them still enough as the hides obviously have a shelf to be able to rest your arms on for stability. I have to say that the binocular option seems better as I see the scopes as ok for stationary birds but I like to be able to scan around quickly to see whats about.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Thanks guys.

Regards,

Dave.
 
Dave, I have gone through three scopes in the last year in the hope there is something magic I am missing but everytime I turn to the bins for the very reasons you mention. Most of my birding is close (less than 200 yards) so a pair of Hawke Frontier ED's 10 x 42do me well. I wear contact lenses and with these I do have excellent vision but when viewing through the scope I can't seem to balance my sight if that makes sense. I keep having to blink. I did look through a Kowa 883 ?? at the Midland Bird Fair last weekend and I have to say that the image was something else but what a beast, I wouldn't want to cart that about through the woods.
 
Just had a trawl around on the net and seen that the Vortex Viper also comes in a 15x50 for £365 .

If these are as good as my 8x42 Vipers I might be tempted !!
 
Dave,

I went through a similar decision process four years ago. The binocular solution was attractive but the high-powered options with central focussing are very limited. I considered 15x63 Optolyths and 15x60 Docters but decided I needed more magnification and settled on a 65mm Zeiss Diascope with the (now unfortunately discontinued) 23x eyepiece, a decision I have not regretted.
If you are going to use the scope mainly in hides, straight would be preferable to angled.

John

PS: With moderate magnifications the dof at longer distances is adequate and the fov of a wide angle eyepiece (52m@1000m in the case above) makes scanning quite easy.
 
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You have various options. High magnification binoculars, for example 15x60 or 20x80. You can get perfectly serviceable models for very reasonable prices (I bought a 20x80 that´s great for seawatching for less than 100 quid...mind you I keep a Nikon ED82A scope alongside it). These "observation binoculars" need a tripod, however.

If you don´t want to use a tripod, try Image Stabilised binoculars...Canon 15x50 or 18x50. Search the threads...Korhaan has recently acquired the latter, and has given us a review. They cost a lot more than the sum you mention, however.

Another alternative is a small, portable scope...the Nikon ED50 with a 27xw eyepiece (I have one and swear by it) can do pretty much everything a big scope can do, and comes well within your budget. I carry mine in a small shoulder-bag, with a lightweight tripod draped over the strap. Very portable, you´ll miss nothing with a pair of bins and an ED50.

Let us know which way you go!
 
All great suggestions. So far I have been able to resist the urge to purchase a set of "big eyes" as they are often referred to in certain NA circles. The claim to fame of many of the 13-16x50-60 mm models is that it offers a more relaxed viewing experience than that of standard spotting scopes especially if you are scanning large areas.

With this thought in mind I often see the big Swaro SLC often referred to as a bit of a reference standard for big eye bins. However, two Minox models...13x56 and 15x58 get some very good reviews for a significantly less expensive price. I just saw that cameralandny picked up the remaining stock on one of the Minox models and is offering them for somewhere between $500 and $600 US IIRC. Definitely a bargain.

If you decide not to go the big binocular route then I would agree that the little Nikon 50 or possibly one of the 65 ED models from Pentax or Minox would be an excellent choice considering price/performance.
 
Simmo1111 said:
Hi everyone,

I am starting to do more birding in hides on wader scrapes and the like, obviously we are now talking greater distances when it comes to being able to positively id birds. I am currently using a pair of 8x42 Vortex Vipers which are a great pair of bins but not so great with the longer distances. Many people are using scopes of course but my birding is more sort of 80% woodland birding and 20% reserve work on the scrapes. Therefore buying a good scope would possibly be a poor choice of the use of my money.

I was just wondering about the Birdforum folk's thoughts here.

Should I get a scope or would I be better getting a pair of high magnification bins, there would be no real issue concerning the problem of being able to hold them still enough as the hides obviously have a shelf to be able to rest your arms on for stability. I have to say that the binocular option seems better as I see the scopes as ok for stationary birds but I like to be able to scan around quickly to see whats about.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Thanks guys.

Regards,

Dave.
Click to expand...

I think I would try the Canon IS binoculars. I have the Canon 12x36 IS II and I like them for situations like you are talking about. They also have a 15x50 IS and an 18x50 Is. Search E-bay or Astromart for some good prices. Here is a pair of 15x50 Canon IS's for $825.00. I would offer him $700.00 and he would probably take it. They are very good binoculars for long distance detail.

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=630217

Here is a pair of the 18x50 Canon IS that went for $690.00 on E-bay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-IS-18x50-...s=65:13|66:2|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Dennis
 
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Saw my username mentioned so would like to give some input on the Canon 18x50 IS's that I own.
-You don't need a tripod.
-Resting your elbows on the shelf in a hide you can scan around and if you find something interesting, you engage the IS and get a rock steady image at 18x mag.
-18x stabilized is better than 15x or 13x, unstabilized.
-You can use them 100% of your time birding, even in woodland.
-They have a great AFOV, and are surprisingly bright.
-They are expensive, they cost me 969.- euro's.
-I had a 23x Zeiss scope, I do not regret I sold it.
-Ages ago I had a 15x70 big binocular. Sold it, found it useless, handheld.
-It'll cost you batteries.
-Did I mention you don't need a tripod?
-They are the best alternative for long range viewing.
-Plus you don't need a tripod.
-I use them all the time on all of my outings, have them only 4 days.
-What do I do with my tripod, now? It's gathering dust.

That said, a straight scope on a decent tripod is the next step up for good long range viewing. But the tripod, it's there and it's in the way...

Good luck and best regards,

Ronald
 
Hi,
I think 8x42 is the ideal configuration for woodland birding. So any other binocular with higher mag would not be of much use in the woods.
I would say a scope is the best that complements your 8x42 for the long distance viewing. For bins higher 12x you'll need a tripod anyway (unless stabilized of course), so why not go directly for a scope where you can have 30x and higher.
Florian
 
In my opinion, when going to the field the 15x binocular is no match for a 60-70mm spotting scope. I have a Kowa 66mm scope matched with a 30x eyepiece that is a dream at bringing in distant objects and views. Light, perfect resolution, waterproof, and very quick to use. The 15x binoculars are not light--even the IS models--and do not present the quality views of a good spotting scope. Unless, of course, you prefer two eyes. In which case, you may want to consider a binoviewer and two eyepieces with a scope.
 
BobinKy said:
The 15x binoculars are not light--even the IS models--and do not present the quality views of a good spotting scope. Unless, of course, you prefer two eyes. In which case, you may want to consider a binoviewer and two eyepieces with a scope.
Click to expand...

And you don't mind the weight. Do you hike?

Even the "heavy" IS bins are much lighter and easy to carry than heavier and more bulky scope + tripod even on a backpack carrier. Especially with a binoviewer.

And there is the two eyes bit. Two eyes do increase the ability to perceive smaller targets. So that's a win for the lighter bins.

And you can get the IS bins on a fleeting target much more quickly. A scope has to be set up.

It depends on habitat too. How far away are the birds? There are quite a few locations (especially ones were I bird) were the birds often appear just too far away for regular bins but mostly not worth

There are trade offs in both directions. Hey, it's birding optics ;)

On a different track: are there binoviewers that work with the usual spotters? Rather than astro refractors.
 
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On a different track: are there binoviewers that work with the usual spotters? Rather than astro refractors.
Click to expand...

Good question Kevin. If I am not mistaken there was a gentleman over in the Spotting scopes forum who goes by "Can Popper" that has worked with binoviewers on at least one of the popular scopes. The idea intrigues me as I wonder what apparent image size would look like as well as just the experience itself.
 
Kevin Purcell said:
Even the "heavy" IS bins are much lighter and easy to carry than heavier and more bulky scope + tripod even on a backpack carrier. Especially with a binoviewer.


And you can get the IS bins on a fleeting target much more quickly. A scope has to be set up.

QUOTE]

That's both true; a 15x50 or 18x50 IS is 1200 grams, 1250 with batteries.
A Nikon 50 ED straight scope plus my Velbon CF 530 tripod with Gitzo G2180 head would make 2500 grams. That's double the weight of the IS bin.
My Zeiss 65 Diascope plus my tripod were 3250 grams.

I missed too many birds because I had the tripod + scope on my shoulder and had to set it up first. Haven't missed a single bird with the 18x50 IS's including Swifts and Hobbies flying past. The FOV is big enough.

Regards,

Ronald
Click to expand...
 
FrankD said:
Good question Kevin. If I am not mistaken there was a gentleman over in the Spotting scopes forum who goes by "Can Popper" that has worked with binoviewers on at least one of the popular scopes. The idea intrigues me as I wonder what apparent image size would look like as well as just the experience itself.
Click to expand...

The image size should look the same but you get to use both eyes!

The problem is you need to extend the light path so I presume the binoviewers use the (huge) extra focus range astro scopes often provide but is missing from a spotter. Or they include a barlow or some other optical device to "extended" the focal length.

BTW, I've missed fast flying birds with my 10x30 IS ... there is a knack in putting them on target which is different from other bins (because they have EPs higher than the objectives). It makes swapping bins difficult to I've found a grip that does help (the military or thumbs up grip).

That said to make the argument for the other side ... when I'm looking at, say, the Peregrine Falcon's nest on the WAMU Tower in downtown Seattle I'd rather have a scope and tripod and save my arms for extended views of high and distant targets. Though high and distant targets might not be an issue in the Netherlands ;)

As I said ... it's all a compromise. Just pick the right tool(s) for the job.
 
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