• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Thermal imaging (1 Viewer)

B

Binastro

Well-known member
Can someone who uses these devices tell me something about them?
Camera, binocular, monocular?
How are they used?
Do they deteriorate with time?
Does an urban or suburban environment mean they don't work well?

I know little about them.

Which makes are currently recommended?

How reliable are they?

How are they powered?

Does one need to interpret what one sees?

Are there switchable filters or channels?

Where are they made?

Thanks.
 
Thanks.
I did come across these, but I recall someone here mentioning perhaps another fine instrument.

Also I would like to hear from an actual user.

Do they work through double glazing?

P.S.
With a personal thermal imaging monocular is the field flat?
Are the edges poor?

With generation 1 and 1 plus image intensifiers the edge is very poor, but generation 2 gives much better edge and general performance.

I used an early digital device but was not impressed.

P.P.S.
Can a thermal imaging monocular be used during the day?
What would happen if accidentally pointed at the Sun?
 
Last edited:
Binastro said:
Thanks.
I did come across these, but I recall someone here mentioning perhaps another fine instrument.

Also I would like to hear from an actual user.

Do they work through double glazing?

P.S.
With a personal thermal imaging monocular is the field flat?
Are the edges poor?

With generation 1 and 1 plus image intensifiers the edge is very poor, but generation 2 gives much better edge and general performance.

I used an early digital device but was not impressed.

P.P.S.
Can a thermal imaging monocular be used during the day?
What would happen if accidentally pointed at the Sun?
Click to expand...

Hi Bin,

Thermals detect temperature differences of 0.2 degrees. It had nothing to do with light where nightvision depends on.
They come in many qualities (like nightvision) and don't work through glass.
The heatsource of, for example a person, is not enough to pass the glass and be detected. Funny enough you see yourself reflected by glass/mirror. Not a nice experience while using it practical in a dark house:C
There are several different color filters you can use, like grey/black, white/black, orange/blue etc. Some models can be attached to camera's etc.
Pointing it at the sun does not harm the equipment but why would you. It's no more than a bright spot. Point the thermal towards a lightbulb and you have the same effect. Checking/investigating heatwaves from the sun requires sophisticated computerskills/equipment.
Pulsar, Seek, Flir and several others (clones) are the brands.
They come in several models and qualities like 1, 2, 2+, supergeneration, 3 and 4 in nightvision. We delivered one which costed 45.000,00 euro and it delivered amazing sharp images, even from more than 1000 meters away. Cheaper models (<1.000,00 euro) will deliver not quite sharp images with a max reach of 200 meters.

Hope this helped.

Jan
 
jan van daalen said:
Thermals detect temperature differences of 0.2 degrees.
Click to expand...

Not really serious, but let's think it through... Application of thermal imaging for birding.

Szenario: you sit in a tropical forest, a Pitta circles you ca. 30 m away in the undergrowth. It will soon appear in some gap in the vegetation for split seconds, if only you would know where moreless it is, you could observe the right spots and get your binoculars/camera on it. A small handy thermal detector would help you locate it and watch the right spots for the Pitta to appear.

Another application would be of course owls etc. in the canopy. Also here, the main use would be to locate the bird, then try to watch it with binoculars and a red light torch or similar.

So the detector would need to be:
- small and handy (to be used in addition to all the other birding gear)
- not expensive
- Reach 50-100 m should be ok
- Showing the birds as a blurry spot would be fine, no need for much details.

Does something like this exist?
 
dalat said:
Not really serious, but let's think it through... Application of thermal imaging for birding.

Szenario: you sit in a tropical forest, a Pitta circles you ca. 30 m away in the undergrowth. It will soon appear in some gap in the vegetation for split seconds, if only you would know where moreless it is, you could observe the right spots and get your binoculars/camera on it. A small handy thermal detector would help you locate it and watch the right spots for the Pitta to appear.

Another application would be of course owls etc. in the canopy. Also here, the main use would be to locate the bird, then try to watch it with binoculars and a red light torch or similar.

So the detector would need to be:
- small and handy (to be used in addition to all the other birding gear)
- not expensive
- Reach 50-100 m should be ok
- Showing the birds as a blurry spot would be fine, no need for much details.

Does something like this exist?
Click to expand...

Birds are more difficult to detect with the cheaper models because the feathers are isolation. It won't do in the range <75meters/1.000,00 euro range.
The telephone adapter, mentioned in the other post, works up to 70 meters but won't detect birds.

So, it does excist but you have to drop the "not expensive" demand.

Jan
 
The main problem with the cheaper ones is the pixel count, even ones costing >£1000 will still only have a resolution of 200 pixels or fewer, they are great at close range but at a distance the object of interest is only a handful of pixels.
 
jan van daalen said:
Birds are more difficult to detect with the cheaper models because the feathers are isolation.
Click to expand...

Ah indeed! I wondered about the small temperature difference in the tropical forest scenario, where the bird is only a few deg warmer than the sourrounding. But on top of that comes insulation...

jan van daalen said:
So, it does excist but you have to drop the "not expensive" demand.
Click to expand...

Guess I better drop the whole idea then :-O

pete_gamby said:
Maybe this would do the job :)

http://www.flir.co.uk/flirone/ios-android
Click to expand...

Yes, this looks nice. Someone should test it if it works as a Pitta detector...
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Thank you all for your most helpful replies.

I have an older model Sony A7S, which I use for star photos with a Samyang 85mm f/1.4 lens, which has high transmission.
At 51,000 and 102,000 ISO the photos are good.
The exposures are ridiculous. 1/13th second at f/1.4 shows mag 8 stars in the centre and 7th mag sharp stars at the edge of a full frame image. Longer exposures are worse. I don't stack photos just single images top JPEG.
This is in bad light pollution. No stars seen unaided eyes, many stars in the viewfinder.
But through glass I get a bright photo of myself.
I got a lens shield, black cloth that sticks to the window. This works, but I doubt that it would work with a thermal imager.

With the Sony A7S for general photos it chooses either 100 ISO or 12,8000 ISO on auto, and there is little difference in quality.
 
Most thermal imagers on the market are not aimed at general observation, they are aimed at people specifically looking for heat loss, e.g in buildings, or heat build up, e.g in machinery. Those marketed for observation tend to be up in the £20,000 or greater price bracket. For example the thermal camera used on Springwatch would set you back £250,000!
 
dalat said:
Actually someone has tried the flir thing and others: http://infrared-birding.blogspot.ch/p/welcome-to-infrared-birding.html

As you say, appears that one needs to go above 1000 € to get some results. And then, all the sample pics seem to be done in cold temperatures (snow), so in the tropics, it would probably be harder to get results. Perhaps in a couple of years?

Another interesting post (watch the vids): http://infrared-birding.blogspot.ch/2016_05_01_archive.html
Click to expand...

I used the Flir and the Seek as thermal and the Swarovski NC2 as nightvision in South Africa last month for lion monitoring/anti poaching programm and thermal works well in hot conditions. It's just that birds loose less (visible) heat and therefore they are in practical use much more difficult to identify as a heat spot between the leaves which also reflect/generate detectable heat creating all kind of heatspots.

Jan
 
Hi,

last time I used thermal imaging equipment was many years ago and back then it it was $$$$$$$$ - but it was buy one, get one free and came with a Leopard 2 MBT around it.
Large mammals (like foot soldiers) were easily seen even when camouflaged well by foliage but anything smaller than geese or so didn't work well.

Joachim
 
Thermal imaging equipment goes from cheap, almost unusable (just like night vision/starlight) to very expensive.
High quality gear that gives an enhanced image along with a night vision sensor runs over $22,000.00 US and can only be sold to government personnel.
Flir makes models for police and fire for search and rescue, you can track foot prints under the right conditions.
Their stuff is reasonably priced but the output is a relatively low pixel count.
Insight (which is L3 corporation) sells military grade civilian models that start at $9,000.00 US and can be very useful in tracking game or people, in most states it is illegal to use for hunting.
You would need a very high quality unit to spot bird heat signatures and then probably only at 25 meters or less.
Really not much use for birding.
Even with a gen 3+ ITT scope it is hard to see a bird at night.
Art
 
Warning! This thread is more than 7 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

O
Affordable thermal device that comes with a screen?
Replies
18
Views
2K
OkamotoKeitaSin
O
P
What do beginners notice most when looking through binoculars.
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Paultricounty
P
hopster
Blackouts looking at edge of FOV with Noctivid 8x
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Bentley03
B
A
Looking for long eye relief binoculars
2
Replies
25
Views
4K
jring
J
chill6x6
SFL vs. Aurora...
2 3
Replies
40
Views
4K
tenex
tenex

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top