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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

A great opportunity - to get ripped off. (1 Viewer)

hollis_f

hollis_f

Well-known member
Now here's an offer that I'm sure nobody can refuse. I want you all to send me copies of your very best bird images. In return I'll send a prize to the best one (as long as it reaches some arbitary standard - set by me).

Oh, I'll also need you to give me £20 for the privilege. Oh, and you'll also sign over all rights so that I can publish the pictures myself (and, if I'm feeling generous, I might give you a little bit of money in return - but I might not).

OK, PM for the address to send all those images (and the £20 cheques - please don't forget the cheques).

What do you mean, do I think you're an idiot?

Well, Bird Watching magazine and Warehouse Express obviously think their readers/customers are stupid - because those are exactly the conditions for entering their new competition.
 
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Just had a look at it as the magazine arrived in the post today......yes it does sound a bit steep for an entry fee. Surely a graduated one for how many of the different categories you enter would have been a much fairer way. Even the "reduced entry" rate for the ones that are entering the Under 18 section of £10 is a lot for that one category.
 
Frank,

Thanks for bringing yet another example of a common, and growing, problem to our attention.

Welcome to the world of copyright infringement. It would help if photographers, professional and amateur alike, would stop giving their work away simply for the vain (or naive) aspiration of seeing one's name in print. It results in the increased undervalueing of our product, and the skills necessary to create that product.

Robert / Seattle, aka
www.pisanostudio.com
 
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Robert / Seattle said:
Welcome to the world of copyright infringement. It would help if photographers, professional and amateur alike, would stop giving their work away simply for the vain aspiration of seeing one's name in print. It results in the increased undervalueing of our product, and the skills necessary to make that product.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but where should the line be drawn? That's what I've never been sure about. I've recently put a few low-res shots on the BF gallery, would that be undervaluing my photos? I was also approached by my local bird club for use of a photo in their newsletter and I sent them a few, higher-res this time. I thought that using them to promote local birds in the club newsletter for free would be an acceptable use of them. Should I have done that in your opinion?

As for the competition mentioned by the original poster - no way.
 
Clive Watson said:
Agreed, but where should the line be drawn? That's what I've never been sure about. I've recently put a few low-res shots on the BF gallery, would that be undervaluing my photos? I was also approached by my local bird club for use of a photo in their newsletter and I sent them a few, higher-res this time. I thought that using them to promote local birds in the club newsletter for free would be an acceptable use of them. Should I have done that in your opinion? ...
Click to expand...

Good points, Clive, and I would agree with your approach. Its a big subject and prone to many "gray areas" -- but I generally draw the line at educational (and charitable) vs. commercial use. Birdforum is clearly an educational application, as would be the case with your local bird club. And with respect to commercial/editorial end use, one can also choose to submit low res files for review purposes, i.e., for editorial and commercial consideration -- saving the high res version for accepted and compensated use. Having said that, I would also use high res versions for charitable donations, such as environmental groups -- that has real value, and at least you have a say regarding the use of the image.
 
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Re the original post, I think Clive summed it up quite nicely in his last sentence.

I realise that there'll be plenty of people queing to get rid of their 'hard earned' but wouldn't it be great if nobody entered. Daylight Robbery!
 
graeme782 said:
Re the original post, I think Clive summed it up quite nicely in his last sentence.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, but I notice it's been censored! I put asterisks in so as not to offend which thought would be OK. Sorry mods, but I'm a bit disappointed with that.
 
The other side of the argument, Warehouse Express would pose; the competition entry fee of £20 part covers the cost of the prizes awarded, administration costs, advertising, etc.

As the other sponsor, Birdwatching magazine naturally want the use of these images for their purposes.

Where I would disagree with the replies.

The photographer still has rights over the image and with the bonus of a placed image; it increases an awareness of an individual’s work and the chance to attain more commissions and higher fees.

I’m sure BW and WE are big enough not to charge an entry fee. But that would probably cause them the major problem of being inundated with entries to sieve through.
 
Clive Watson said:
Thanks for this, but I notice it's been censored! I put asterisks in so as not to offend which thought would be OK. Sorry mods, but I'm a bit disappointed with that.
Click to expand...

Don't worry Clive, i saw your original reply.

I also note that my post was censored even though i too used asterisks. I'm aware that this site isn't only used by adults but anyone over the age of eight will have heard far worse in the playground. And yes i know, it doesn't make it right, but the context is changed slightly when replies are sanitised. And in my defence, i did use asterisks in what is the mildest expletive known to man.
 
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of this sort of thing going on. On flickr there are sponsored groups, in which companies get the right to use all photographs submitted, however, many people do not read the small print.
I also think its fine to give them to small, charitable organisations, like local bird groups, as it actually adds to the publications quite a bit.
 
pe'rigin said:
The other side of the argument, Warehouse Express would pose; the competition entry fee of £20 part covers the cost of the prizes awarded, administration costs, advertising, etc.

As the other sponsor, Birdwatching magazine naturally want the use of these images for their purposes.

Where I would disagree with the replies.

The photographer still has rights over the image and with the bonus of a placed image; it increases an awareness of an individual’s work and the chance to attain more commissions and higher fees.

I’m sure BW and WE are big enough not to charge an entry fee. But that would probably cause them the major problem of being inundated with entries to sieve through.
Click to expand...

Totally agree,

In the UK its one of the more significant competitions to enter and looking at last years winners there are some stunning images taken by very well known wildlife photographers. I don't for one minute the likes of David Tipling did it for 'the vain aspiration of seeing their name in print.'

And as pe'rigrin says the entry fee is the first selection stage, gawd help the judges if it was free

Would i enter? Certainly if I thought my work was of a high enough standard - which I don't. Winning a competition of that standard would make me very happy

Edit Just had a quick flick through the t&cs of the 'Shell Wildlife Photographer of the year' and they are basically the same, so is that competition a ripoff as well?
 
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pe'rigin said:
The other side of the argument,
Where I would disagree with the replies.

The photographer still has rights over the image ...
Click to expand...

paul goode said:
Totally agree,
Click to expand...

Gentlemen,

Not sure exactly where you're coming from. It was clearly stated in the original post that all future rights of the photographer would be surrendered to the publication, and without specified compensation.

That's a fairly one-sided arrangement so far as I can see, and a deal-breaker at that.

Robert / Seattle
 
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Robert / Seattle said:
Gentlemen,

Not sure exactly where you're coming from. It was clearly stated in the original post that all future rights of the photographer would be surrendered to the publication, and without specified compensation.

That's a fairly one-sided arrangement so far as I can see, and a deal-breaker at that.

Robert / Seattle
Click to expand...

Well the competition rules are here http://www.iwpawards.com/IWP_2008.pdf

which I guess is where pe'rigin got the info from.

The organisers reserve the
worldwide, royalty-free right and
licence for the full period of
copyright to publish winning and
commended images in a book or
magazine, and at their discretion
will pay reproduction fees to​
photographers.
 
paul goode said:
Well the competition rules are here http://www.iwpawards.com/IWP_2008.pdf

which I guess is where pe'rigin got the info from. ...
Click to expand...

Where it clearly states:

"The organisers reserve the
worldwide, royalty-free right and
licence for the full period of
copyright to publish winning and
commended images in a book or
magazine, and at their discretion
will pay reproduction fees to
photographers."


Which, I maintain, is one-sided and a slap in the face to practicing and aspiring professionals everywhere.
 
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Robert,

As you are a professional photographer I'm not disputing what you have stated although it will be interesting to see why pe'rigin who also, I believe, works in the industry has a different view on things.
 
Robert / Seattle said:
Frank,

Thanks for bringing yet another example of a common, and growing, problem to our attention.

Welcome to the world of copyright infringement. It would help if photographers, professional and amateur alike, would stop giving their work away simply for the vain (or naive) aspiration of seeing one's name in print. It results in the increased undervalueing of our product, and the skills necessary to create that product.

Robert / Seattle, aka
www.pisanostudio.com
Click to expand...

Forgetting about the specific case in hand, and talking generally, I can see why professional photographers get upset about amateurs giving away photos gratis for the glory of being "published" (or simply out of good nature), but I don't think complaining about this is going to change anything. The fact is that modern "amateur" equipment is so good that just about anybody nowadays can take the kinds of photos that only the advanced amateur or professional was capable of producing a few years ago. And, as this trend continues--as it surely will--the situation from the professional's point-of-view is only going to get worse. The answer--I think, if there is one--is for professionals to move on to the kinds of work only they can do or at least can do much better than non-professionals, & to leave the easy stuff to the rest of us.

Maybe I'm writing this partly out of guilt. I'm strictly an amateur--now using digital cameras but starting with film many years ago--and I give away rights to my digital photos all the time, to just about anybody who asks including to some who clearly intend to make (or save) money out them (the question never arose with my silver-based output since only friends and family ever saw it). But why not? I don't need the kind of pin money selling my work would bring in--and I certainly don't need the administrative hassle of trying to collect it. And, of course, it's a compliment to be asked. By the same token, I don't worry about my photos being "stolen". I generally post high-resolution files--so viewers can blow them up for maximum detail--and I don't fool with copy-right stamps or try to restrict the downloading process in any way.

Just my thoughts on the subject. As I've said, I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the professional and I'm definitely not trying to start an argument with anybody.
 
fugl said:
Forgetting about the specific case in hand, and talking generally, I can see why professional photographers get upset about amateurs giving away photos gratis for the glory of being "published" (or simply out of good nature) ... The answer--I think, if there is one--is for professionals to move on to the kinds of work only they can do or at least can do much better than non-professionals, & to leave the easy stuff to the rest of us. ...
Click to expand...

Which is what I've been doing since becoming a professional (architectural and interiors photographer) in the mid 80's. But it won't keep me from arguing the points that keep the next generation of photographers, regardless of sub-specialty, from a reasonable shot at making a decent living at a fair and honorable craft. It's not so much that skills are buffeted by modern day super cameras (at least with respect to "found shots"), as the fact that the media marketplace has shown an historic lack of respect for the producers of fine images. Always has.

This is nothing new. And has less to do with "quick digital fixes and auto-capability" than you might think (if it's that easy, then let the publishers take their own photos). Everything is getting easier, like mass producing tomatoes, but you won't see the cost of fruits and vegetables coming down in the marketplace anytime soon! Why? -- Because tomato growers don't sell the fruits of their labor (sorry about the pun) for less than they're worth.
 
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Robert / Seattle said:
Frank,
(...)


It would help if photographers, professional and amateur alike, would stop giving their work away simply for the vain (or naive) aspiration of seeing one's name in print. It results in the increased undervalueing of our product, and the skills necessary to create that product.

Robert / Seattle, aka
www.pisanostudio.com
Click to expand...


On behalf of the Exploited, I fully subscribe to this statement!

:t: :clap::clap::clap: :t:


Tom
(overworked, underpaid scientisto)
 
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