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Scottish -v- Common Crossbill (1 Viewer)

deborah4

deborah4

Well-known member
Having found and Id'd birds as Common Crossbill yesterday, views through scope had me wandering about the differences between those and the ones i found in Scotland very recently. I know there is no plumage difference and the length of the overhook of the Common is supposed to be marginally longer but difficult to tell in the field (and call obviously), I wondered whether anyone very familiar with both species in the field, has noted any overall jiz difference? In observing and comparing the two (s)sp yesterday, I couldn't help feeling the ones I was seeing gave the impression they were 'lighter' in weight somehow (same size though) along with the bills which seemed slightly less 'heavy' - this was all subjective response to jiz of course, but I wondered whether there was anything in it? Comments would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
deborah4 said:
Having found and Id'd birds as Common Crossbill yesterday, views through scope had me wandering about the differences between those and the ones i found in Scotland very recently. I know there is no plumage difference and the length of the overhook of the Common is supposed to be marginally longer but difficult to tell in the field (and call obviously), I wondered whether anyone very familiar with both species in the field, has noted any overall jiz difference? In observing and comparing the two (s)sp yesterday, I couldn't help feeling the ones I was seeing gave the impression they were 'lighter' in weight somehow (same size though) along with the bills which seemed slightly less 'heavy' - this was all subjective response to jiz of course, but I wondered whether there was anything in it? Comments would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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You may already be aware of this, but Common Crossbills are also found in Scotland, aswell as Scottish and Parrot Crossbills. How did you ID your Scot-bills?
 
marklhawkes said:
You may already be aware of this, but Common Crossbills are also found in Scotland, aswell as Scottish and Parrot Crossbills. How did you ID your Scot-bills?
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Yes Mark, thankyou. I didn't Id the crossbill sp. I found in Scotland as positive identification of this as a distinctive species is nigh on impossible, indeed even if any diagnostic differences existed at all to make that even theoretical possible (either genetically or otherwise). However, Parrot Crossbill was ruled out as the bill size and structure fell outside that which would be within acceptable range for this sp. If you care to read my recent trip reports and List of this incidence, you will note, the ''scottish'' sighting was listed as 'Crossbill' (sp?), also you will note that with me at the time was a very experienced birder, from the local area who safely ruled out Parrot for reasons mentioned. (Location was indicative as we were going on Grid References provided personally by the local County Recorder, who had referred to the Crossbill sp. in that location as ''Scottish'' but that didn't 'prove' anything). Myself and my companion agreed referring to a Crossbill sp. as ''Scottish'' is fraught with taxonomical difficulties and neither of us were going down that road! And do not still! I was merely commenting in this thread on the jizz of 'weight', 'heaviness' differences between the Crossbill I saw yesterday and those I'd seen in Scotland, rather than suggesting one was 'Scottish Crossbill' and one was Common Crossbill.
 
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Common Crossbill vary much more than people realise, with many birds around this year being larger billed continental birds.....possibly what you saw in Scotland.
I am not sure that location would be "indicative" as if the area was known for "Scottish" type birds then I am sure there would be Parrot and Common there also. There are NO areas which can be labelled as exclusively "Scottish".

I have been watching a flock of 30+ Parrot Crossbills locally for a few months and have been quite surprised at the variation in bills in this species too. Certainly some of these birds seen alone I would have questioned as Parrot a few years ago. These birds certainly do however have a bulkier jizz and "weight" than Commons. Common in flight just seem like a finch, whereas Parrot more Starling like.

Personally I think that if you are sure it's not a Common by sight in Scotland, then it's a Parrot. Common and Scottish are inseperable on sight alone, and the biometrics back this up.


John
 
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jpoyner said:
Common Crossbill vary much more than people realise, with many birds around this year being larger billed continental birds.....possibly what you saw in Scotland.


John
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Hi John, I'm not looking for an ssp identification of the Crossbill I saw in Scotland as a separate Laxia species - I was and am very happy to leave that open. (As I said, it was the County Recorder, who apparently has been monitoring 'Scottish' Laxia, who told us the exact grid ref. where he sights them, which we went to but found the birds a little distance off the grid). However, myself and the other birder with me (and especially me!) decided we could not call it as neither of us were particularly convinced that latia scotica even merited being split from either Parrot or Common and we certainly didn't derive any conclusions from the sighting other than to rule out Parrot for reasons mentioned above. What I am interested in, however, is thoughts regarding my observations of the Common I saw yesterday and the apparent jiz differences I mentioned. The reason I mentioned 'Scottish Crossbill' is (while I still have problems with this) I know some birders here do regard the Scottish species as distinct and it is particularly those reasons (other than those that have been identified with vocal diagnostics off/in field) that I was interested in. Even those who don't think there is any diagnostic basis to differentiate, I would be interested to hear of comments relating to the differences I noted.

Cheers

Personally I think that if you are sure it's not a Common by sight in Scotland, then it's a Parrot. Common and Scottish are inseperable on sight alone, and the biometrics back this up.
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I personally don't know how anyone could be 'sure' its not a common, was very sure of the ones I saw in Hampshire though and was just noting some difference that's all!

BTW. If I'd implied by my first post that I'd identified the Crossbill I saw in Scotland as ''Scottish Crossbill'', then I apologise, that certainly wasn't the case, as I said we left the ssp taxa open
 
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I am no expert on the jizz and size of "continental" commons, however I still think it quite possible that the birds you were looking at yesterday were "resident" smaller billed Commons and the ones you saw in Scotland merely continental Commons, especially if you were 100% sure that they were not Parrot Crossbill?

Personally I think that the whole "Scottish" Crossbill situation has changed with the establishment of Parrots in Scotland and I think that it's quite feasable to suggest that the original "Scottish" type birds are now being "diluted" by interbreeding, possibly with both Common and Parrot. Or perhaps even the isolated population of Parrots are now evolving smaller bills due to food supply....think Darwins finches and bingo.

If this is the case then birds of all shapes and bill sizes are possible and it throws one massive spanner in the works. In this case, your guess is as good as mine!

John
 
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jpoyner said:
I am no expert on the jizz and size of "continental" commons, however I still think it quite possible that the birds you were looking at yesterday were "resident" smaller billed Commons and the ones you saw in Scotland merely continental Commons, especially if you were 100% sure that they were not Parrot Crossbill?
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Yes, that could be one explaination for the apparent 'light weightiness' of the commons seen yesterday. The flight jiz around the tree tops was very finch like and busy, whereas the scotland birds were 'sluggish' in comparison. The plumage of the males I saw yesterday were dull red, rather than the more brighter tangerine hue of the ones I saw in Scotland, despite weather conditions and time of day being the same, so this perhaps this fits with the smaller billed ssp of Common Laxia that you mention. Indeed, plumage difference could be more related to geographical separation and diet than any diagnostical differentiation between the ssp (or is that ssssssssp!) One would need to study Common populations in the same area as Scottish Crossbill presumably to make anything of that.

As an aside, unrelated really to my first post, still not sure why you seem weighted in favor of Common sp for the Scottish birds when there is little evidence to suggest either one or the other - given the fact that we were following the grid directions to the site from the person who's been recording a population of Laxia Scotica at the grid reference we went to, I would have thought the odds were at least 50:50? Also not sure what taxa differences you refer to , when you say ''continental'' commons, are you referring to a migratory pop. of common, or indeed the hybridised, but residential, common crossbill with the influx of continental Parrot? It's all very confusing isn't it!!!

John
In this case, your guess is as good as mine!

John
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LOL! If I need to guess an Id, or even presume one, I wouldn't bother to call it or list it :h?:

Personally, I'm inclined to think location and feeding habits could explain a lot of variation between Common laxia and those are the sorts of observations from those who have studied both groups I would welcome. I'm also still interested to learn more whether those very familiar with the Scottish Crossbill that they have id'd and monitored as such, have also noted jizz differences unrelated to vocalisation, or do they live with the charge that Laxia has been split on the basis it talks funny depending on where it lives?
 
Andrew Rowlands said:
Give us some background, Debs - how often have you seen crossbills?
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Meaning what exactly? Please read the whole thread before making inane comments like this. I'm quite happy with the identification I made yesterday thankyou and quite happy to leave the Scottish pair as identified as a Crossbill sp. I was merely inviting comments from those who have worked with all types on why there is variation in particular on jizz and behaviour.
 
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One other useful clue is what the birds are feeding on. Only Parrot feed on green, unopened Scots Pine cones. Did you notice this I wonder? As for plumage this again is so variable depending on age and time of year. Bright and dull males can occur in all "three" species.

Also the Crossbills here are very mobile depending on food availability, in fact little is known as to exact movements, but there are certainly very few about at the moment. Locality in my view would have little bearing on helping with id in the Scottish Pinewoods except perhaps at a nest site of a known species. Areas traditionally labelled as having "Scottish" birds would have Common and Parrot too probably in much greater numbers. In fact, in Abernethy the most abundant breeeding Crossbill was found to be Parrot (HIghland Bird Report 2003), followed by Common and only about 1 in 10 were thought to be Scottish type.

Continental Commons are birds which regularly errupt in to the UK. joining our resident birds.

John.
 
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deborah4 said:
Meaning what exactly? Please read the whole thread before making inane comments like this. I'm quite happy with the identification I made yesterday thankyou and quite happy to leave the Scottish pair as identified as a Crossbill sp. I was merely inviting comments from those who have worked with all types on why there is variation in particular on jizz and behaviour.
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Meaning I was going to suggest that you track down some of your local Crossbills, if you have any, and spend some time sketching them. With your obvious skills in that department, you'd soon learn an awful lot about them and make picking out 'odd' ones relatively easy for the future.

Does that mean I can't make a comment because, in your guesstimation, I haven't worked all types?
 
I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started this thread.

I saw a pair of crossbill in Hampshire which, in passing and general observations, seemed albeit subjectively to be a slight varient on ones I'd seen recently in Scottland. Everyone is jumping to conclusions about what I'm saying here. I did not ID the scottish pair and do NOT want to do so now. The ID for that pair were left satisfactorially as ''A Crossbill species''.

The purpose of this thread was for me to hear views from people experienced in working with Scottish Crossbill, as to their observations re: jizz in the field cf. to Common Crossbill. As regards, the subjective observations I made myself on the Hampshire birds: (A) No help is needed with Iding these thankyou. (B) Studying more Crossbill in South of England, is pointless when Ive asked for a comparative study with Scottish Crossbill! The information I'm looking for, is a comparative analysis between the split laxia types, especially to do with jizz impressions in the field. Only someone who A) accepts the split, and can tell the difference in the field B) Has comments to make regarding behaviour and Jizz would be able to help with what I am asking.

There could be many reasons, John has touched on some, including issues to do with evolution, but also it would be interesting to hear from those experienced in monitoring and observing both species alongside each other, (yes Andy that does preclude you) as to some of the other reasons why Crossbill might vary around the Country.



BTW. RE Identification of Scottish sighting If the very experienced birder I was with couldn't say anymore other than the ones we were observing in the field, down a powerful scope in good light, were 'not Parrot', the pair sighted being of the upper range of size for that type , then I don't see how anyone on BF, can make any assumptions about anything. Out of due respect for my companion, this ID is not up for grabs - Sorry.

If no one has anything to contribute along those lines, I would be interested as for Id's of birds mentioned, that is irrelevant to my enquiry here.


On second thoughts, I'll google some research papers myself, I don't think I'll get the help here I was looking for.

Thankyou for all your contributions.
 
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deborah4 said:
The purpose of this thread was for me to hear views from people experienced in working with Scottish Crossbill, as to their observations re: jizz in the field cf. to Common Crossbill.
Click to expand...

Deborah, I am not particularly experienced with crossbills, but I do have an interest in them. As far as I am aware, there are no consistent, clearly visible differences in jizz that could be used to reliably distinguish between Scottish and Common crossbill. For that reason, all crossbill records identified to species level and submitted to the NE Scotland bird recorder must now be supported by sonogram evidence. That's not to say that some people haven't noticed subtle differences in jizz, but I don't know anyone who would happily identify a Scottish Crossbill nowadays without audio evidence.
 
Capercaillie71 said:
Deborah, I am not particularly experienced with crossbills, but I do have an interest in them. As far as I am aware, there are no consistent, clearly visible differences in jizz that could be used to reliably distinguish between Scottish and Common crossbill. For that reason, all crossbill records identified to species level and submitted to the NE Scotland bird recorder must now be supported by sonogram evidence. That's not to say that some people haven't noticed subtle differences in jizz, but I don't know anyone who would happily identify a Scottish Crossbill nowadays without audio evidence.
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Many thanks Capercaille, that's exactly the sort of contribution I was looking for. I do believe some people, who have worked closely in the field with Scotia, have claimed to notice subtle jizz differences, unfortunately, much of the work produced from field studies by these people is only available in it's full text by registering for the periodicals and paying for the article. I believe there has been some interesting articles in IBIS but I don't subsribe to it! (Perhaps a lot of the resistence from birders vis a vis ornithologists has more to do with being unable to 'list' Scotia reliably without sonagramic verification. ;) Certainly, it's from the perspective of a birder, that I'm interested in more details regarding the jizz claims from those working in the field, as I think we all would be with any species (subs) of birds)
 
Capercaillie71 said:
...and submitted to the NE Scotland bird recorder must now be supported by sonogram evidence. .....
Click to expand...

Hi,

I remember British Birds had a paper on crossbill song differences, I don't remember it mentioning jizz and behaviour spcifically but if you can track that down it may have some useful references.

I've only been taking BB for about 3 years, this years index arrived today and it isn't in there so it must have been 2005 or 4 (I read and recycle so I can't track it down). I'm sure somebody on here will have kept all the indexes and will provide the reference (unless I dreamt it).

Cheers,
Paul
 
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