Tri-coloured blackbird . . ? (1 Viewer)

jinjimbob · Jun 7, 2004

Hi,

I think this is a tri coloured blackbird, but a person has told me it is a red winged blackbird. It was taken up in Northen California at Tule Lake.

Any idea?

http://www.tetch.com/pix/california/tulelake/img_2610.htm
http://www.tetch.com/pix/california/tulelake/img_2611e.htm
http://www.tetch.com/pix/california/tulelake/img_2580e.htm

Also, is this a fox sparrow?
http://www.tetch.com/pix/california/tulelake/img_2536e.htm

thanks

Michael Frankis · Jun 7, 2004

Hi Jinjimbob,

Welcome to BirdForum!

I'd agree with Red-winged Blackbird: bright red with a yellowish border, rather than deep red with a white border in Tricolored.

The second Bird is a Song Sparrow. Too small for Fox Sparrow, and with too well-marked a head pattern.

Michael

Warbler · Jun 8, 2004

I totally agree with Michael for the same reasons. Red-winged Blackbird and Song Sparrow.

gthang · Jun 8, 2004

agree on Red-Wing Blackbird, have to say Yes to Fox sparrow. Note the grayish area of the head and slightly brown-rufous streaking on the head.

EDIT: Your sparrow looks just like the sparrow I saw way back in March, never saw it again... Since I was unable to get a picture, I posted a description, which very closley resembles your sparrow, and i was given an ID of Fox Sparrow.

crispycreme · Jun 8, 2004

The bill alone rules out the Fox Sparrow (which is very finch-like in its thickness). I concur with RW and Song.

(here's a good pic of the Fox and its bill: http://www.theorniphile.info/fox_sparrow.html )

Katy Penland · Jun 8, 2004

Not trying to be odd (wo)man out here, but what am I missing about the three blackbirds to indicate them being RW? In the pix posted, there are clearly white, not yellow, median coverts showing, with only some yellowish at the top. At least on my monitor. Unless you're assuming that the yellow is completely blown out and over-exposed to make it appear white? I've never seen a single RWBL with white coverts. These look like classic Tri-coloreds to me.

Song sparrow usually has much bolder, thicker streaking on the belly/breast. This bird's finer streaking and lack of the typical "messy spot" on the breast (that Song has) reminds me more of Lincoln's sparrow.

Rasmus Boegh · Jun 8, 2004

Katy Penland said:
In the pix posted, there are clearly white, not yellow, median coverts showing, with only some yellowish at the top. At least on my monitor.

Erhm! Not on my monitor! They do indeed seem yellow on my monitor, though it is indeed a very pale yellow. Anyway, the hue of the red (also) seem to point towards Red-winged rather than Tricolored. Guess this is another of those "we will only know what color it really was, if the photographer tells us..."

Katy Penland · Jun 8, 2004

Rasmus Boegh said:
Guess this is another of those "we will only know what color it really was, if the photographer tells us..."

You're undoubtedly right, Rasmus. How 'bout it, jinjimbob? Can you confirm what the colors are on the "shoulder patch" of the bird in question? (I'm assuming you're the photographer...?)

Desertbirder · Jun 8, 2004

As for the Blackbird, its a tricky one since on my monitor there definately is a white border to the shoulder patch, but the overall colour of the patch is not deep enough ( as it should be this time of year ) .I would have to lean towards Red winged...
The Sparrow is a Song Sparrow, bill size and structure and the pale edges to the tertials are no good for Fox Sparrow, and the clean dark whisker stripe is good for Song Sparrow.

Grousemore · Jun 8, 2004

I've just checked the pics and agree with katy that they show as white rather than yellow;difficult to ID on those pics alone,for the reasons stated above and the only bill profile shot is inconclusive.

crispycreme · Jun 8, 2004

Katy said:
Unless you're assuming that the yellow is completely blown out and over-exposed to make it appear white?

They look overexposed on my end. Besides, the third pic (from further away) seems to show a more uniform yellow. Also, shouldn't any yellow present rule out the Tri-colored? As far as I'm aware, the coverts are strictly red and white (as they are strictly red and yellow for the Red-winged). Hence, the median covert can only be white or yellow, not both. To me, it seems easier for yellow to appear white in a photo (through overexposure) than it is for white to appear yellow.

Katy Penland · Jun 8, 2004

I used to think that the red/white and red/yellow combos were diagnostic until I saw Sibley's guide mention (and illustrate) as a "buffy" coloration as well for tri-colored, which I've seen in the field. (In my early ignorance, I actually thought that "tri-colored" meant the three colors on the shoulder, which of course isn't correct, but it did help remind me that part of the white can appear buffy or yellowish on this sp.)

The problem with the bird photos under discussion is that our perception of the "white" and "yellow" is totally dependent on how over/under exposed the shot was made, our monitors' color calibration, and (with all due respect to the opposite gender), a tendency toward color-blindness in various degrees.

No, don't yell at me about that last; it's a statistical fact that men tend to have this condition more, if not almost exclusvely, than women. I'm not saying that's at work here, just pointing out it can be problematic particularly for IDing from photos on a monitor.

Digital cameras do not handle reds, yellows and whites well at all, mushing out details and having a "flaring" or "strobing" effect. I think, if I'm reading the photographer's website correctly, these were shot with film, which doesn't have that limitation except for over-exposure which can bleach yellows.

Rasmus was right. Until we hear from the photographer if ANY white was present, I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

Jane Turner · Jun 8, 2004

From a position of no knowledge at all on the subject, are there any structural differences, wing forumla etc that would help?

Katy Penland · Jun 8, 2004

Jane Turner said:
From a position of no knowledge at all on the subject, are there any structural differences, wing forumla etc that would help?

I wish! Per Sibley, the Tri-colored is a slightly more robust bird with a longer wingspan and more pointy wings but a bill that "averages thinner" than Red-winged. I would assume that the folded wing should look slightly longer, then, relative to the tail in Tri-colored (well past the undertail coverts), where in RW the primary tips should just be only at or slightly beyond the UCs. ???

In the area where the photos were taken, the RW's ubiqutous NA range overlaps the Tri-colored's relatively tiny range (Central-Coastal California for the most part, with colonies now being found in northern Oregon and southern Washington). Even had we had good shots of the bill, I'm not sure the difference between "thinner" and "thicker" could be distinguished without the two spp side by side, and even that would not take into account individual variation.

EDIT: Forgot to ask jinjimbob if the bird was heard singing. The RW and TC songs are very different.

Jane Turner · Jun 8, 2004

well the wing tips on this bird fall short of the under-tail coverts......

Katy Penland · Jun 8, 2004

On which photo are you seeing this?

Grousemore · Jun 8, 2004

Katy Penland said:
The problem with the bird photos under discussion is that our perception of the "white" and "yellow" is totally dependent on how over/under exposed the shot was made, our monitors' color calibration, and (with all due respect to the opposite gender), a tendency toward color-blindness in various degrees. No, don't yell at me about that last; it's a statistical fact that men tend to have this condition more, if not almost exclusvely, than women.

You've got me worried now,as I was with you on the "white" side!

As far as other differences are concerned,Jane,the only ones I've read are that Tricolored have more pointed wings and bill and longer,more slender body.

Tero · Jun 8, 2004

jinjimbob, try to get a front view of Song Sparrow, if that is what it is, next time

Rasmus Boegh · Jun 8, 2004

Katy Penland said:
a tendency toward color-blindness in various degrees. No, don't yell at me about that last; it's a statistical fact that men tend to have this condition more, if not almost exclusvely, than women.

Or perhaps it is age-related, just hinting that I may be the youngest member taking part in this discussion

On the more serious side, yes, Tricolored can indeed show buff instead of white, this mostly being when the plumage is worn. Fairly recently I heard someone stating that the size of the shoulder patch is useful; well, I again went back to my photo-database, and it obviously isn't! I have read about the various structural differences, but when going to the many photos I have of these species (I have also seen both species together in "real", but as I usually made sure to see the wing well, or heard them sing, I didn't bother to much about other features), the difference seem to be rather small, with a large area of overlap.

Here are a bunch of links; then you can judge for yourself

Tricolored:

http://www.ktsweb.com/tweeters/images/Tri-colored_Blackbird.jpg
http://klamathbasinrefuges.fws.gov/images/gallery/triclr.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/res1u8vm/images/-TCBLmale.jpg
http://birdwebsite.com/gallery/desjardin/tricoloredbig.jpg

Red-winged:

http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/chf/pub/ifwis/birds/images/red-winged-blackbird.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~richditch/images/rwblackbird4.jpg
http://www.birds-n-garden.com/free_graphics/1024_red-winged_blackbird.jpg
http://members.cox.net/birdingnla/Redwinged Blackbird 03_08_02_02.jpg

Still, I'll put my money on Red-winged, but obviously it would be best if we could get some confirmation from the person who took it. As mentioned before, did you note the exact colour of the shoulder-patch?

crispycreme · Jun 8, 2004

Perhaps it might be useful to find out just how well our eyes and monitors are interpreting these pics. I've taken the second picture of the blackbird, and enlarged the covert, marking down how I see each color variation (no other alterations were made to the photograph). Do you see these colors the same way I do?

Grr.. the arrows didn't materialize. :C

Tri-coloured blackbird . . ? (1 Viewer)

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