My 8x32 Blue Sky failed but all is not lost. (1 Viewer)

tpcollins · Oct 3, 2014

I was at the Michigan game on Sept 20th in the rain with my Sightrons, didn't think anything of it. Went to look thru them the next Saturday and the left objective was clouded over, looked like dried milk was spilled on the inside. Called Sightron and they said to send them in. They have never been dropped, hope that limited lifetime warranty covers them being sealed.

WJC · Oct 3, 2014

tpcollins said:
I was at the Michigan game on Sept 20th in the rain with my Sightrons, didn't think anything of it. Went to look thru them the next Saturday and the left objective was clouded over, looked like dried milk was spilled on the inside. Called Sightron and they said to send them in. They have never been dropped, hope that limited lifetime warranty covers them being sealed.

Were they advertised as being waterproof?

Bill

tpcollins · Oct 4, 2014

WJC said:
Were they advertised as being waterproof?

Bill

Based on the specs I downloaded from their manual, the SII Compact is waterproof. When I talked to the rep he said they probably just need to be recharged - and resealed I hope. We'll see.

WJC · Oct 4, 2014

tpcollins said:
Based on the specs I downloaded from their manual, the SII Compact is waterproof. When I talked to the rep he said they probably just need to be recharged - and resealed I hope. We'll see.

I hope so, too. But, having sold hundreds of binos to the Alaskan fishing fleet, I would like to mention that what constitutes waterproof to that breed, and what constitutes "Waterproof" for those living in Omaha are quite different.

I remember those autumn nights in SW Michigan, when it was so foggy your headlights could catch a glimpse of fish swimming across M-140, 3 feet from the asphalt. Mix in a LITTLE cold, and you have a bad condition for some binos.

Cold turns a bino into a vacuum. And, if there is any moisture around . . . bad juju!

Bill

jan van daalen · Oct 4, 2014

WJC said:
I hope so, too. But, having sold hundreds of binos to the Alaskan fishing fleet, I would like to mention that what constitutes waterproof to that breed, and what constitutes "Waterproof" for those living in Omaha are quite different.

I remember those autumn nights in SW Michigan, when it was so foggy your headlights could catch a glimpse of fish swimming across M-140, 3 feet from the asphalt. Mix in a LITTLE cold, and you have a bad condition for some binos.

Cold turns a bino into a vacuum. And, if there is any moisture around . . . bad juju!

Bill

Bill,

You have to help me out here.
The nitrogen gas in the bin is at 0.2 to 0.4 atmosphere pressure. How cold does it has to be outside to create the vacuum so the moisture can enter?
To create such a vacuum should suggest (at least) the seals are still working.

Jan

tpcollins · Oct 4, 2014

The tracking number indicates they got them on the 2nd, we'll see how they do. These are my truck bins so maybe I should bring them in during the winter!

justabirdwatcher · Oct 6, 2014

Good luck. I'm loving mine. Hope it works out for you and you get them back soon.

mooreorless · Oct 6, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Bill,

You have to help me out here.
The nitrogen gas in the bin is at 0.2 to 0.4 atmosphere pressure. How cold does it has to be outside to create the vacuum so the moisture can enter?
To create such a vacuum should suggest (at least) the seals are still working.

Jan

Hi Jan I am not Bill , but I think he is assuming this binocular has lost the nitrogen gas/ seal and Bill had this post quoted from TP

" Originally Posted by tpcollins View Post
Based on the specs I downloaded from their manual, the SII Compact is waterproof. When I talked to the rep he said they probably just need to be recharged - and resealed I hope. We'll see."

WJC · Oct 6, 2014

Bill,

You have to help me out here. The nitrogen gas in the bin is at 0.2 to 0.4 atmosphere pressure. How cold does it has to be outside to create the vacuum so the moisture can enter? To create such a vacuum should suggest (at least) the seals are still working.

Jan

Hi Jan:

Even as geeky as I can sometimes get, I don’t know the answer to your question.

I do know the vacuum does not become problem, until a seal IS broken. Even so, I can give you some information from the running of a real-world optical repair shop.

My best binos were sold to retired birders and commercial fishermen. The fishermen outnumbered the birders about 6 to 1.

I could save the fishermen $30 to $50 by NOT filling the bino with nitrogen! I experimented. First, it is good to remember that purging a bino has nothing to do with PRESSURIZATION, as some people suppose. Fungus can’t grow in an inert gas environment, and dry nitrogen is often placed in higher quality instruments so that, if there’s ANY moisture, left in the instrument during manufacture or repair, fungus won’t be allowed to start. Sometimes, fungi can be easily removed, removing only the AR coatings from the lens or prism. Other times, you may remove the fungus only to discover it has severely etched the glass substrate.

I think purging and filling is a good idea. However, If found that if a bino was really sealed, it would not draw moisture, anyway!

During my last few years at Captain’s—and at the customer’s request—I would skip the purging / filling step. Of the hundreds of instruments treated, NOT ONE CAME BACK FOR REWORK! If you mix this with the pickiness of the commercial fishermen—they couldn’t afford to have their binos fog up 400 miles out into the Bering Sea—I think a much better case can be made for adequate sealing, as opposed to the wonders of nitrogen purging and filling.

Hope this helps,

Bill

Torview · Oct 6, 2014

Bill,

I find your last post most interesting, as you also use a Nikon SE, how well sealed do you consider it to be ?

I have read positive comments before on just how well put together the internals are.

John.

WJC · Oct 6, 2014

Torview said:
Bill,

I find your last post most interesting, as you also use a Nikon SE, how well sealed do you consider it to be ?

I have read positive comments before on just how well put together the internals are.

John.

Hi Torview:

The SE is not touted as being waterproof. However, I don't do seabirds and will never be in an environment in which it will be subject to fogging. It is plain its sealing is head and shoulders above many popular "water RESISTANT" units.

I have never been inside an SE. But I am incredibly pleased with my unit.

One of the first things I do when evaluating a bino is to actuate the hinge. That tells me about the precision of the machining. With its firmness and smoothness, the SE shouts of expensive, aerospace machining.

Cheers

Bill

ceasar · Oct 7, 2014

Bill,

My memory is not always at its best but I think I remember an article you wrote for "Sky and Telescope" magazine back in the late 90's about the Nikon 10X42 SE. (If my memory is wrong, please advise and I will delete this in a hurry.) I saved the magazine and put it away for further reference but we moved a couple of times since then and I believe it is in a box somewhere in my basement now.

I recall you did a thorough analysis of it and concluded that it was the best 10x42 binocular on the market at that time. I had the opportunity to get one at a very good price about 10 years ago and I have to agree with you.

I hope I find the magazine soon. My wife and her sister were reorganizing the basement a few weeks ago and I may run across it.

Bob

WJC · Oct 7, 2014

ceasar said:
Bill,

My memory is not always at its best but I think I remember an article you wrote for "Sky and Telescope" magazine back in the late 90's about the Nikon 10X42 SE. (If my memory is wrong, please advise and I will delete this in a hurry.) I saved the magazine and put it away for further reference but we moved a couple of times since then and I believe it is in a box somewhere in my basement now.

I recall you did a thorough analysis of it and concluded that it was the best 10x42 binocular on the market at that time. I had the opportunity to get one at a very good price about 10 years ago and I have to agree with you.

I hope I find the magazine soon. My wife and her sister were reorganizing the basement a few weeks ago and I may run across it.

Bob

Bob:

You’re kind to remember that piece from 17 years ago! I tried to find it to send you a copy. But back in the early days, I was too stupid to keep good files on such.

The 10x42 SE was a really nice bino, with all the good points of the 8x32 I use for birding. I may have said it was the best of its kind I had ever tried. However, please keep in mind that while Cory and I worked on all brands of all ages, we didn't have access to all the binos ever made.

While I was looking for that article, I came across a photo you might find interesting. That’s me in the foreground, on USS Grand Canyon in 1976, doing what I did best … fixin’ ‘nocklars—collimating, actually.

That’s old what’shisname in the background doing what he did best … checking a horizontal stabilizer. That requires one to get horizontal and see how long he can remain stabilized! :t:

Cheers,

Bill

ceasar · Oct 7, 2014

You're welcome Bill! I'll dig the article up!:t:

You look pretty well stabilized!

Bob

WJC · Oct 7, 2014

ceasar said:
You're welcome Bill! I'll dig the article up!:t:

You look pretty well stabilized!

Bob

Cory is the stabilized one; I'm doing the work.

He never got over the fact that I was a college puke "push button," and checked aboard the Canyon outranking him, although he finished the school in the class before mine.

Bill

jan van daalen · Oct 7, 2014

WJC said:
Bill,

You have to help me out here. The nitrogen gas in the bin is at 0.2 to 0.4 atmosphere pressure. How cold does it has to be outside to create the vacuum so the moisture can enter? To create such a vacuum should suggest (at least) the seals are still working.

Jan

Hi Jan:

Even as geeky as I can sometimes get, I don’t know the answer to your question.

I do know the vacuum does not become problem, until a seal IS broken. Even so, I can give you some information from the running of a real-world optical repair shop.

My best binos were sold to retired birders and commercial fishermen. The fishermen outnumbered the birders about 6 to 1.

I could save the fishermen $30 to $50 by NOT filling the bino with nitrogen! I experimented. First, it is good to remember that purging a bino has nothing to do with PRESSURIZATION, as some people suppose. Fungus can’t grow in an inert gas environment, and dry nitrogen is often placed in higher quality instruments so that, if there’s ANY moisture, left in the instrument during manufacture or repair, fungus won’t be allowed to start. Sometimes, fungi can be easily removed, removing only the AR coatings from the lens or prism. Other times, you may remove the fungus only to discover it has severely etched the glass substrate.

I think purging and filling is a good idea. However, If found that if a bino was really sealed, it would not draw moisture, anyway!

During my last few years at Captain’s—and at the customer’s request—I would skip the purging / filling step. Of the hundreds of instruments treated, NOT ONE CAME BACK FOR REWORK! If you mix this with the pickiness of the commercial fishermen—they couldn’t afford to have their binos fog up 400 miles out into the Bering Sea—I think a much better case can be made for adequate sealing, as opposed to the wonders of nitrogen purging and filling.

Hope this helps,

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for explaining, but there are still some things I don't understand.

You say purging has nothing to do with pressurization.
This is what I know on this subject:

Purging is done because the Japanese bins, exported to the US in the fifties, became fogged during the trip and had to be cleaned in the States.
Marketing boys than made it a quality issue: "these bins are not only sealed but also purged". So the European optic industry had to follow the Japanese optic industry in this matter and purged their optics also (this was told to me by a Zeiss rep during a factory visit). A good sealing should do the same job! Same like your opinion.

Now it is my understanding that the factory brings in the 100% pure and dry Nitrogen at a pressure of 0.2 'till 0.4 atmosphere so that no moisture is in the bin and can't enter the bin. That's why they pressurize it.

You are saying that purging and pressurizing are two different things. What am I missing?

Jan

perterra · Oct 7, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Bill,

Thanks for explaining, but there are still some things I don't understand.

You say purging has nothing to do with pressurization.
This is what I know on this subject:

Purging is done because the Japanese bins, exported to the US in the fifties, became fogged during the trip and had to be cleaned in the States.
Marketing boys than made it a quality issue: "these bins are not only sealed but also purged". So the European optic industry had to follow the Japanese optic industry in this matter and purged their optics also (this was told to me by a Zeiss rep during a factory visit). A good sealing should do the same job! Same like your opinion.

Now it is my understanding that the factory brings in the 100% pure and dry Nitrogen at a pressure of 0.2 'till 0.4 atmosphere so that no moisture is in the bin and can't enter the bin. That's why they pressurize it.

You are saying that purging and pressurizing are two different things. What am I missing?

Jan

I'm learning here, cool info about the Japanese fogging on the ride over.

I think he is saying one is a modified atmosphere.

Purged then modified by pressurizing with probably 99.998% nitrogen. Pressurized could be just dry air, which is something like 76 or 78% nitrogen.

etudiant · Oct 7, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Bill,

You have to help me out here.
The nitrogen gas in the bin is at 0.2 to 0.4 atmosphere pressure. How cold does it has to be outside to create the vacuum so the moisture can enter?
To create such a vacuum should suggest (at least) the seals are still working.

Jan

Very interesting.
I had no idea that the inside of binoculars was a partial vacuum. It seems peculiar, as any leak would mean outside air and dirt gets sucked in, but there must be some rationale.
Would it not be better to slightly overpressure the inside? That way any leak would just vent the glass a little, something less problematic than an air and dust inrush into a partial vacuum.
Next maybe add a little pop up pressure indicator, sort of like on car tires, shows green when the glass is pressurized, yellow when it gets deflated. Marketing might like it too.

jan van daalen · Oct 7, 2014

etudiant said:
Very interesting.
I had no idea that the inside of binoculars was a partial vacuum. It seems peculiar, as any leak would mean outside air and dirt gets sucked in, but there must be some rationale.
Would it not be better to slightly overpressure the inside? That way any leak would just vent the glass a little, something less problematic than an air and dust inrush into a partial vacuum.
Next maybe add a little pop up pressure indicator, sort of like on car tires, shows green when the glass is pressurized, yellow when it gets deflated. Marketing might like it too.

You're right.

We live at sealevel (OK, in Holland below) at 1 atm. So 0.4 should mean minus in that regard. What I meanth was that it is 1.2 to 1.4 pressure.
Sorry for the confusion.

Jan

denco@comcast.n · Oct 7, 2014

tpcollins said:
I was at the Michigan game on Sept 20th in the rain with my Sightrons, didn't think anything of it. Went to look thru them the next Saturday and the left objective was clouded over, looked like dried milk was spilled on the inside. Called Sightron and they said to send them in. They have never been dropped, hope that limited lifetime warranty covers them being sealed.

Chinese and Philippine binoculars aren't made for tough wet cold climates. If you live in Michigan get an alpha if you want it too last. Swaro, Leica, or Zeiss. The Sightron Blue Sky is not built as well and you are going to have trouble. I had trouble with three pairs of them. Sold them all. They are NOT reliable for tough use.

My 8x32 Blue Sky failed but all is not lost. (1 Viewer)

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