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Are really today's binoculars that much better? (1 Viewer)

My question is about the development of new binoculars.

Today's binos, how much did they improve with the years? Are today's budget options match for the alphas of the past? Can we expect to have even better optical quality on the future? Or to have the same range of quality at lower prices?


Hello,

I believe that today's budget binoculars are not a match for the alphas of a decade or two ago, but the mid-priced binoculars surely are.
The future is an unknown territory but I think improvements may be rather marginal. Much of the improvements of the past three decades, including dielectric coatings and phase coatings only brought contrast and transmission levels of roof prism glasses up to the level of Porro binoculars. ED glass is not the only way to limit chromatic aberrations [CA] but it allows suppression of CA in a more compact binocular.
Most optical improvements have started with the alphas and after a few years, the middle priced binoculars incorporate those improvements. As others have written mechanical reliability and long term customer service seem to remain with the top tier companies.
The biggest improvements in binoculars in the last 80 years were:
Coated optics, circa 1940
Introduction of "B" binoculars with long eye relief for eyeglass wearers, circa 1956. However, the technology was available but not marketed years earlier.
Marketing of roof prism binoculars featuring internal focussing with closer focussing and easy waterproofing, often at the expense of field of view and originally with poorer contrast, poorer resolution and poorer light transmission.
Multi-coating, circa 1980.
Phase coating, circa 1983 for roof prism binoculars.
Dielectric coating for Schmidt-Pechan roof prism binoculars. N.B. neither A-K prism roof binoculars nor Porro binoculars need such coating.


Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
 
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I repaired, or tampered with, depending on how you look at it (eh Bill) my Hawke Endurance 10x25 (approx£100) and now it's performing very well such that I'm starting to use it regularly and finding it a nice useful asset whereas before my tampering it wasn't much use and was left to the side and this was the 4th bin (third replacement) from Hawke and I'd pretty much given up on it so was spurred into tamper mode.

Anyhow when I was out with it a few times after the tampering it actually occurred to me that of all of the bins I have owned it most reminded me of the Leica 10x32 HD that I had. Of course not just as good but not really that far behind and much lighter and more compact.

So if you could actually manage to get a good one of these from Hawke (I tried 3 times, obviously they are good components but really cobbled together in China and Hawke seemingly incapable of noticing) it would be a very good little bin for a 10th of the price of a big brand bin such as the Leica. So just one example of how the cheap end is persuing - and catching - the top end at least in optical quality. You just have to fix them yourself.
 
I recently acquired a Zeiss 8x30 from the late 60, early 70's. With exception of eye relief, it compares very well to modern 8x32 binoculars (after giving it a desperately needed internal cleaning). Although it "only" has simply coatings, it is just as bright as my Minox 8x33 under bright daylight. There is a one aspect where it actually beats every other 7x or 8x binocular I know and that is stray light control. The 8x30 only displays very slight veiling extending about 1/3 into the FOV when a bright street lamp is placed just outside the lower field stop. With these I can observe things near the setting sun where other, more expensive modern binoculars, only show me glare.
 
I repaired, or tampered with, depending on how you look at it (eh Bill) my Hawke Endurance 10x25 (approx£100) and now it's performing very well such that I'm starting to use it regularly and finding it a nice useful asset whereas before my tampering it wasn't much use and was left to the side and this was the 4th bin (third replacement) from Hawke and I'd pretty much given up on it so was spurred into tamper mode.

Anyhow when I was out with it a few times after the tampering it actually occurred to me that of all of the bins I have owned it most reminded me of the Leica 10x32 HD that I had. Of course not just as good but not really that far behind and much lighter and more compact.

So if you could actually manage to get a good one of these from Hawke (I tried 3 times, obviously they are good components but really cobbled together in China and Hawke seemingly incapable of noticing) it would be a very good little bin for a 10th of the price of a big brand bin such as the Leica. So just one example of how the cheap end is persuing - and catching - the top end at least in optical quality. You just have to fix them yourself.

Clive said: “I repaired, or tampered with, depending on how you look at it (eh Bill) ...”

Clive, while I think you know me well enough to understand my motives (you poor fellow), I will hurry on to say:

I HAVE NEVER HAD AN AVERSION TO PEOPLE REPAIRING THEIR OWN BINOCULARS ... NEVER!!!

In fact, I encourage it. People who can react faster than they can reason often get me wrong about this, leaving me feeling like Doc. Holliday in a room full of young guns eager to become corpses. But those of us who know the ins and outs of the craft (knowing how to repair OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS and not 2 or 3 models of one company’s binoculars) are dying off and we think it’s important enough to go on. That’s why I visit binocular forums and Cory holds 3-axis collimation classes. Hopefully, we do this to help a new generation.

Much of it can be learned by trial and error. However, the learning curve associated with the trial and error method of 3-axis collimation requires MUCH more in-depth thinking than most would-be opticians are willing to invest in. That’s why I get wrapped around the axle when I see someone who really doesn’t know what he’s talking about jump up and down and mislead others by saying he has “collimated” his binocular—when, in fact he hasn’t—and how easy it was.

Yes, if only the screws on the offending telescope (most people only know about the prism-tilt convention for alignment) are turned—and the other telescope wasn’t already misaligned—3-axis collimation can be restored without anyone knowing the techniques or mathematics involved.

More often than not that’s not the case and those following the simpish, “You just gotta turn these screws” method—with no clue as to which is the offending side—take their instrument ever farther away from clinical collimation. I have performed conditional alignment on some of my own instruments and for those who didn’t want to pay for having the job done thoroughly. At no time, however, did I call the work “collimation.”

Those with an adequate degree of spatial accommodation or an over abundance of the “I don’t cares,” may never realize the difference. But the science is easily damaged by those who think they know what they don’t.

“In matters of style, swim with the current. In matter of principle, stand like a rock.”—Thomas Jefferson

Repair is up for grabs. For collimation, I’m standing like a rock. The honest and humble truth seeker deserves that. :cat:

Bill
 
I recently acquired a Zeiss 8x30 from the late 60, early 70's. With exception of eye relief, it compares very well to modern 8x32 binoculars (after giving it a desperately needed internal cleaning). Although it "only" has simply coatings, it is just as bright as my Minox 8x33 under bright daylight. There is a one aspect where it actually beats every other 7x or 8x binocular I know and that is stray light control. The 8x30 only displays very slight veiling extending about 1/3 into the FOV when a bright street lamp is placed just outside the lower field stop. With these I can observe things near the setting sun where other, more expensive modern binoculars, only show me glare.

Hello Matt,

The Zeiss probably has very thorough baffling, an often undervalued part of the optical train, a feature which improves the optics. Coatings and glass are not the only ingredients of a good binocular.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
 
Roof or porro? At the time Zeiss still made both. And the porro beat the roof anytime. In fact, it ran circles around it.

Hermann


Sorry, actually I meant late 50'S early 60's. It has porro prisms with an air spaced tele-objective and 6 element (2-1-1-2) eyepiece and was introduced in 1954. They produced it almost unchanged for 17 years so they must have been doing something right :)
 
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My question is about the development of new binoculars.

Today's binos, how much did they improve with the years? Are today's budget options match for the alphas of the past? Can we expect to have even better optical quality on the future? Or to have the same range of quality at lower prices?

I think there have been a lot of improvements in the last 10-20 years:

* ED/FL glass (less color aberrations)
* Bigger FOV
* Sharpness to the edge
* Longer eye relief/better viewing comfort
* Better color fidelity/better coatings
* High transmission glass and coatings (better low light performance)
* Better ergonomics (faster focusers, better balance etc)
* Water and dust proof (nitrogen filled)
* Shorter minimum close focus distance
* Lighter weight (compared to Zeiss Night OWLs, old SLC:s, the classic Trinovid "brick" etc.)
 
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Close focus - well, I don't need that myself. I rarely look at my feet through my binoculars.

Hermann

Who says Germans do not have a sense of humour? Not me, and another thing I don't do is look at my feet even though I use the close-focusing capability of binos a lot.

I don't expect to change your mind about close focusing Hermann, and if you are a dedicated specialist in birds then you don't need it.

But there are wonderful experiences to be had and much to learn and enjoy by observing at close distances, not only butterflies and dragonflies and many other insects, but also flowers, fungi, lichens and especially stuff under water from fish to amphibians and from sea anemones to crustaceans and nudibranchs. Why would you look at nearby subjects through bins and not with the naked eye? Because the views are better.

Give it a try, its another way of getting even more enjoyment out of binos.

Lee
 
I think there have been a lot of improvements in the last 10-20 years:

* ED/FL glass (less color aberrations)
* Bigger FOV
* Sharpness to the edge
* Longer eye relief/better viewing comfort
* Better color fidelity/better coatings
* High transmission glass and coatings (better low light performance)
* Better ergonomics (faster focusers, better balance etc)
* Water and dust proof (nitrogen filled)
* Shorter minimum close focus distance
* Lighter weight (compared to Zeiss Night OWLs, old SLC:s, the classic Trinovid "brick" etc.)

You are right pointing all of this improvements but to be honest there is not binocular on market with better neural color and transparency as the latest Zeiss 7X50 BGAT..............And yes has narrow FOV, is Huge etc etc but if you try one of this ones in the field against your best you will be amazed.

Really sharp from 10 meters to infinity with a good eyes, nothing escapes trying to focus for much smart focus that mew binoculars have.

I did and i sold my 8X42 HT immediately.
 
Clive said: “I repaired, or tampered with, depending on how you look at it (eh Bill) ...”

Clive, while I think you know me well enough to understand my motives (you poor fellow), I will hurry on to say:

I HAVE NEVER HAD AN AVERSION TO PEOPLE REPAIRING THEIR OWN BINOCULARS ... NEVER!!!

In fact, I encourage it. People who can react faster than they can reason often get me wrong about this, leaving me feeling like Doc. Holliday in a room full of young guns eager to become corpses. But those of us who know the ins and outs of the craft (knowing how to repair OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS and not 2 or 3 models of one company’s binoculars) are dying off and we think it’s important enough to go on. That’s why I visit binocular forums and Cory holds 3-axis collimation classes. Hopefully, we do this to help a new generation.

Much of it can be learned by trial and error. However, the learning curve associated with the trial and error method of 3-axis collimation requires MUCH more in-depth thinking than most would-be opticians are willing to invest in. That’s why I get wrapped around the axle when I see someone who really doesn’t know what he’s talking about jump up and down and mislead others by saying he has “collimated” his binocular—when, in fact he hasn’t—and how easy it was.

Yes, if only the screws on the offending telescope (most people only know about the prism-tilt convention for alignment) are turned—and the other telescope wasn’t already misaligned—3-axis collimation can be restored without anyone knowing the techniques or mathematics involved.

More often than not that’s not the case and those following the simpish, “You just gotta turn these screws” method—with no clue as to which is the offending side—take their instrument ever farther away from clinical collimation. I have performed conditional alignment on some of my own instruments and for those who didn’t want to pay for having the job done thoroughly. At no time, however, did I call the work “collimation.”

Those with an adequate degree of spatial accommodation or an over abundance of the “I don’t cares,” may never realize the difference. But the science is easily damaged by those who think they know what they don’t.

“In matters of style, swim with the current. In matter of principle, stand like a rock.”—Thomas Jefferson

Repair is up for grabs. For collimation, I’m standing like a rock. The honest and humble truth seeker deserves that. :cat:

Bill

Well you took the bait Bill or is that what I'm doing?

Do they do anti stress courses Bill for folks who go barmy over a term? or folks who answer?
I say tomato you say tom-ate-o lol.

I'm not conducting science on some of my bins. I just fix them were needed as best I can so that they work better for me and I can then use and enjoy them whereas previously this was not the case so you go and call whatever you want how you want - doesn't bother me - and I will be free to do so also and yes it was another collimation as a matter of fact. It worked once so obvious to try again and yet another result. I don't need no stinking course. Natural genius is sufficient.

Deep breaths Bill. If I am using a term incorrectly then ok, you win, whatever. No need to shout. I'm sure we all get it.

Didn't somebody shoot Jeffersion for coming out with stuff like that? Sorry not big on history.

I repaired my bins or I improved my bins performance or I tampered with them as I said but collimation is fine also in this case I think you will find if you consider it thoroughly Bill Jefferson.
 
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Well you took the bait Bill or is that what I'm doing?

Do they do anti stress courses Bill for folks who go barmy over a term? or folks who answer?
I say tomato you say tom-ate-o lol.

I'm not conducting science on some of my bins. I just fix them were needed as best I can so that they work better for me and I can then use and enjoy them whereas previously this was not the case so you go and call whatever you want how you want - doesn't bother me - and I will be free to do so also and yes it was another collimation as a matter of fact. It worked once so obvious to try again and yet another result. I don't need no stinking course. Natural genius is sufficient.


Deep breaths Bill. If I am using a term incorrectly then ok, you win, whatever. No need to shout. I'm sure we all get it.

Didn't somebody shoot Jeffersion for coming out with stuff like that? Sorry not big on history.

I repaired my bins or I improved my bins performance or I tampered with them as I said but collimation is fine also in this case I think you will find if you consider it thoroughly Bill Jefferson.

Clive,

I need no deep breaths; I am totally on YOUR side, HERE! I am the first one to say—and have said for years that too many people get spun up over—and talk endlessly about—things they, beyond a doubt, cannot see ... except in their MINDS eye. But if you took all the unrealistic notions out of these forums, postings would shrink by 90% or more. I am eager for folks to do their own repair and stand by to help if I can. I must admit I can get a little spun up myself when a fellow tightens a hinge and calls it a repair and collimation job. But, it takes all kinds and perhaps the fellow needs the attendant attention.

They are nice in that they cause people to think. When you can smell the wires burning it’s a good thing. But, as one other on a bino forum has pointed out: “Two or Three OPINIONS do not equal DATA.” :cat:

Cheers,

Bill
 
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