Alpha Slayer Naysayer Contender Pretender Same Gal in a Different Skirt. (1 Viewer)

Nixterdemus · Jul 29, 2017

I remember Zen Ray being the buzz, bought one, and then coming out w/increasingly better/more expensive models jousting w/alphas online anyway.

Theron or Kruger Caldera, I chose the latter, was another overachiever for price point.

Now, Maven of various models, GPO and Toric are jockeying for position in the neverending backstretch. As soon as an up and coming stead is declared the new handicap winner more entrants are loaded into the gate for yet another race.

I'm not complaining as competition is healthy though various clones muddy the water a mite. There's only so many factories that actually manufacture the latest/greatest glass.

How long before a modular lens touts itself as the bin to end all bins? Chose CW or CCW on focus. Fast, medium or slow speed. Thick rubber armour, light pebble grain or svelte perhaps rich Corinthian leather.

How much FOV because as real estate there's only so much to go around and premium space demands similar price.

Will ED do in the objectives only or is high grade Fluorite required fore n aft? Lifetime warranty no questions asked, limited lifetime warranty or our standard ninety day guarantee? If it's good enough for electronics certainly it's worthy of mechanics.

Of course there would be a surcharge for the privilege. The days of going to your local auto dealer and ordering the new chariot w/vast array of options is long gone. Too expensive, time consuming and one size fits all.

But w/all the "new" bins coming out and clones of clones, claiming almost there though even more affordable, what is left to enhance the public at large?

A Pelican style hard case? A birding sweepstakes to Fuji, Madagascar and the Galapagos Islands? Complimentary one year membership in wine of the month club? Infused kryptonite crystal lenses? BOGO bin 50% off?

It is nice to have several options at various prices available. Yet, since affordable ED glass has apparently become abundant the field twixt alpha, high end and mid level seems to have shrunk.

That isn't a bad thing except now I look at bins I've bought and wonder if the new version(s) are that much better. And if my old eyes could detect the difference.

Since I've had a cataract removed from dominate eye perhaps I should focus on fieldscopes.

As always, YMMV ...

ETA: I find it quite intriguing that upstart Tract offers both bins and riflescopes that have been so highly lauded by Outdoor Life. One might think Moses just came down from the mount w/Ten Commandments in hand. A shame the scope isn't FFP

gunut · Jul 29, 2017

I'm waiting for buy tract scope...get a free 8x42 toric bin.....

jgraider · Jul 29, 2017

gunut said:
I'm waiting for buy tract scope...get a free 8x42 toric bin.....

Asinine comments like this are about par for gunut, who has never laid eyes on a Tract anything. Since I actually own and use Toric binocs and a riflescope, I can report that they continue to punch waaaay above their price point.

edwincjones · Jul 29, 2017

In another thread I commented of my surprise when comparing
my papillio 8x with leica trinovid 8x20 and SE 8x25CL at a local Cabela's
that I could not tell much difference in the optics.
Everything I read tells me that there is a big difference,
and everyone knows and reports so.
The salesperson also committed that "I cannot tell much difference either, but others can."

But can they? Is it just me and the salesperson who cannot tell quality in optics?
Or, are we not alone and many cannot differentiate small to moderate improvements in optical quality?

Maybe that is why we get so many reports that new optics are "as good, or almost as good, as the alphas";
and we just see what we expect to see--what the marketing people tell us to see?

edj

Binosforpele · Jul 29, 2017

I've never believed the hype, and generally attribute it to marketing, groupthink, and brainwashing. The differences between viewing conditions on a day to day--hour to hour, moment to moment--basis far outweigh those between most binoculars once you get past the absolute cheapest. Some things are objectively different--FOV, magnification, weight--but factors like "clarity", "sharpness", etc, are extremely subjective and generally meaningless across eyes and conditions once beyond the Bak-7-uncoated uncollimated binos. And unsurprisingly, those are the bits of nebulous nonsense people use to create hierarchies about which binos are "best"--as if there can ever be a single best pair for any task for every individual, or even more than a fraction of them.

My advice after far too much time in hobbies with multi-$$$$ trinkets is to trust your eyes above all. If you see a difference and think it's worth it, go for it. If you don't see a difference, or do but don't see value in it, then stick with what you have. Birdwatching is only one of many hobbies where people are apt to spend lots of money and even more time justifying the money spent by appeals to authority. I've seen the same phenomena in audiophilia (people swearing by their $10,000 speaker, amp, or head phone rigs for "fidelity"), musical instruments ($20,000 grand pianos, $5,000 guitars for that "true" sound), photography (new $4,000 DSLR bodies and $2,000 lenses for "transparency"), astronomy (the $5,000 refractors for "pinpoint" stars)..it's the same song and dance under different circus tents. Use what works for you and ignore the rest.

Binastro · Jul 29, 2017

Professional musicians do appreciate $20,000 grand pianos.
They also use $300,000 violins. And they know the difference.

Professional photographers do use $4,000 plus DSLRS or $20,000 medium format cameras. And they know the difference.

Astronmers usually use $100 binoculars, because that is quite adequate.
But if I want I can see the difference using a $1,000 plus binocular.

What I don't like is spending $1,000 on a binocular only to find it performs as a $250 binocular.

Anyway buying good secondhand at a charity shop one sometimes gets a $1,000 binocular for $30. And it is still a $1,000 binocular.

P.S.
I also know the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Jowett Javelin.

Nixterdemus · Jul 30, 2017

I suppose I'm easy to please and perhaps do not expect much. I'm happy as a clam on the deck w/Ross 12x50 Stepray. Old school coat, but light and easy to quickly bring to bear. Likewise the old Busch Terlux 15X44.5 is clear as a bell and a joy hold. Not much on FOV though the brass and leather speaks volumes in craftsmanship for 90+ years of age.

Likewise the mid 70's Habicht 10x40 swings w/grace of a 5lb 20 gauge O/U. I've better and worse though I enjoy them all. I've naught agin new and improved though I feel we are being inundated w/technology that, save for the cost, one might say there's nary a nickel of difference betwixt them.

There are excellent bins w/o ED or the latest greatest that can be had for a pittance. Most are porros. The B&L Discoverer 9x35, Swift Audubon HR/5 8.5x44, Swift Holiday Mark II 7x35 featherweight 600' at 1000 yds. Sharp to the edge? Not even close, but if I see something over there I'll pan over.

The Nikon 12x36 roof was a hot commodity in its day in the last century. Some of the latter were phase coated though this one is not. Still on a bright day it's compact light and provides a pleasant view. To each their own though beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Any given $1000 roof, 5 bills for that matter, would blow these smooth out of the water. But, I wouldn't trade my old glass for the best alpha available. So, spend as you wish buying what tickles your fancy. If that is cutting edge more power to ya. I would not discount quality older glass that might be missing a bell or whistle compared to newer offerings.

Bear in mind that what you crave now will be available later slightly used at substantial discount.
As always, YMMV ...

Binastro · Jul 30, 2017

My friends don't use $5,000 refractors for pinpoint stars.
They use $10,000 refractors, $10,000 mounts and $15,000 compound scopes.
Others use $5,000 cameras and $5,000 lenses.

The results are world class as the published images clearly show.

I have no need for these instruments but my planetary telescope took 3 years to make by several of Britain's top optical workers and cost 9 months wages.
Its bigger brother, which was too large for me, cost over one year's wages.

For those that cannot afford these scopes our Association lends instruments for decades to qualified observers.

The same with $300,000 violins. These are lent by Foundations to top musicians for long term use.

I am also quite happy using $100 binoculars.

Nixterdemus · Jul 30, 2017

I drifted a mite off course though that's all good and well. I nevah cottoned to the notion of hijacked threads. None of mine anyway.

All the start-up bin companies basically promise the same. We offer more for less in part by being smaller/more maneuverable/attentive to customer needs and cutting out the middle man.

More for less requires a leap of faith that warranty/company will still be around down the road. Obtaining more for your dollar sounds swell.

I'd enjoy comparing the current Tract Toric 10x42 offering to my old non-HD 10x40 Conquest. I wanted a bin w/Abbe-Koenig prisms. They've fallen out of favour allegedly because the Schmidt-Pechan offers a nicer package. Forget about up to 3% more light as looks are more important than the look. Sleek easier to balance yada, yada, yada. Now w/economical ED glass, super-duper rip your retinas out coatings there seems naught left save for the fashion show. Leather strap and gilded hardware anyone?

I paid roughly the same price as the Toric. No slight intended, but I'm rather sure Zeiss will be around long after I'm gone. I commented on this forum, as I recall, that the Conquest colour appeared artificial as an oversaturated TV. Cardinals, in which I have many, were extraordinarily brilliant. Perhaps I wasn't accustom to the extra 3% as some. Then again in comparison +/-3% could end up w/6% betwixt the twain.

I begrudge none access/ownership of high-end products. I still can appreciate an advantage in build/materials on this end of the spectrum. I'm grateful to live in an era of advancement that once only available to top- shelf offerings trickles down to the masses.

As always, YMMV ...

WJC · Jul 31, 2017

Nixterdemus said:
I remember Zen Ray being the buzz, bought one, and then coming out w/increasingly better/more expensive models jousting w/alphas online anyway.

Theron or Kruger Caldera, I chose the latter, was another overachiever for price point.

Now, Maven of various models, GPO and Toric are jockeying for position in the neverending backstretch. As soon as an up and coming stead is declared the new handicap winner more entrants are loaded into the gate for yet another race.

I'm not complaining as competition is healthy though various clones muddy the water a mite. There's only so many factories that actually manufacture the latest/greatest glass.

How long before a modular lens touts itself as the bin to end all bins? Chose CW or CCW on focus. Fast, medium or slow speed. Thick rubber armour, light pebble grain or svelte perhaps rich Corinthian leather.

How much FOV because as real estate there's only so much to go around and premium space demands similar price.

Will ED do in the objectives only or is high grade Fluorite required fore n aft? Lifetime warranty no questions asked, limited lifetime warranty or our standard ninety day guarantee? If it's good enough for electronics certainly it's worthy of mechanics.

Of course there would be a surcharge for the privilege. The days of going to your local auto dealer and ordering the new chariot w/vast array of options is long gone. Too expensive, time consuming and one size fits all.

But w/all the "new" bins coming out and clones of clones, claiming almost there though even more affordable, what is left to enhance the public at large?

A Pelican style hard case? A birding sweepstakes to Fuji, Madagascar and the Galapagos Islands? Complimentary one year membership in wine of the month club? Infused kryptonite crystal lenses? BOGO bin 50% off?

It is nice to have several options at various prices available. Yet, since affordable ED glass has apparently become abundant the field twixt alpha, high end and mid level seems to have shrunk.

That isn't a bad thing except now I look at bins I've bought and wonder if the new version(s) are that much better. And if my old eyes could detect the difference.

Since I've had a cataract removed from dominate eye perhaps I should focus on fieldscopes.

As always, YMMV ...

ETA: I find it quite intriguing that upstart Tract offers both bins and riflescopes that have been so highly lauded by Outdoor Life. One might think Moses just came down from the mount w/Ten Commandments in hand. A shame the scope isn't FFP

"Same Gal in a Different Skirt"

That is the story all over Asian optics. Some people get twitterpated over the NEW __________________ binocular when, in fact, the product is really the OLD _____________ binocular, or OLD _______________ binocular, or OLD _____________ binocular, etc. ad nauseam. Of course, there were changes in advertising, coatings, cosmetics, and pricing, but inside the product may be virtually the same. And so it goes ... again. :cat:

Bill

Nixterdemus · Jul 31, 2017

Kudos to anyone that wishes to go down that road and offer bin A, B &/or C at a competitive price. Though instead of spending money on cosmetics perhaps someone should offer a generic line. Early Henry Ford style comes in any colour you like so long as it's black. Plain white box w/BINS in blk along w/power/objective. Save more w/Genuine Generic ED Objectives!

Tract appears well connected as they have bins & riflescopes. And they both were in Outdoor Life glass off palooza. Two lines of bins though five of riflescopes and of the latter twenty-three from which to chose.

A2GG · Jul 31, 2017

Nixterdemus said:
Kudos to anyone that wishes to go down that road and offer bin A, B &/or C at a competitive price. Though instead of spending money on cosmetics perhaps someone should offer a generic line. Early Henry Ford style comes in any colour you like so long as it's black. Plain white box w/BINS in blk along w/power/objective. Save more w/Genuine Generic ED Objectives!

Sounds like Opticron. All bins are black and many rather plain/generic looking. Most models are relatively affordable with a few higher end models thrown in.
The box isn't all white, but it's still plain old cardboard and the accessories are nothing fancy. I had the Countryman HD for a while and enjoyed it. Many of their bins have modest FOV however. The Countryman produced a very pleasing image. :t:

Patudo · Jul 31, 2017

I know there's a point the OP is trying to 'lucidate, but it's somewhat lost amidst the 'literation. Were those turns of phrase scribed 'special for this pow-wow, or does 'Rkansas have an under-the-radar rapper?

The narrowing of the gap 'twixt beta and alpha should be celebrated, yet oft seems met instead with considerable cynicism. The man from Japan has come in many guises; Maven, Tract and GPO seem similar in their strategy (quality to price) to now classic Swifts and other good Nipponese product of old. There's little doubt incremental improvements are discernibly apparent over time, just look at the Fieldpro coatings kerfuffle; I appreciate using antique optics, but could I wish state of the art technology into them - I surely would.

Nixterdemus · Aug 1, 2017

Gilmore Girl said:
Sounds like Opticron. All bins are black and many rather plain/generic looking. Most models are relatively affordable with a few higher end models thrown in.
The box isn't all white, but it's still plain old cardboard and the accessories are nothing fancy. I had the Countryman HD for a while and enjoyed it. Many of their bins have modest FOV however. The Countryman produced a very pleasing image. :t:

Modest FOV seems to be the Achilles heel of many bins that otherwise had crisp views. Every aspect being a compromise revolving around price point and profit. B

I have the Vortex Viper 8.5x50 comprising a whopping 305' FOV. Clean view w/mild PC doesn't seem that narrow after looking through the Vulture 15x56.

NDhunter · Aug 1, 2017

Nixterdemus said:
Modest FOV seems to be the Achilles heel of many bins that otherwise had crisp views. Every aspect being a compromise revolving around price point and profit. B

I have the Vortex Viper 8.5x50 comprising a whopping 305' FOV. Clean view w/mild PC doesn't seem that narrow after looking through the Vulture 15x56.

Vortex optics have not been near the top in any measure. And now
that they are all made in China, that makes them more less so. |8||

With all of the makers, and branders, just consider that.

Jerry

Nixterdemus · Aug 1, 2017

Patudo said:
I know there's a point the OP is trying to 'lucidate, but it's somewhat lost amidst the 'literation. Were those turns of phrase scribed 'special for this pow-wow, or does 'Rkansas have an under-the-radar rapper?

I presume your revelation was accomplished after slamming several cans of Red Bull. But, since you seek favour I dub thee knight of self-buggery.

So, between penning new material, go bugger youself mate. :king:

Nixterdemus · Aug 1, 2017

NDhunter said:
Vortex optics have not been near the top in any measure. And now
that they are all made in China, that makes them more less so. |8||

With all of the makers, and branders, just consider that.

Jerry

Mine, 8.5x50, was made in Japan and discontinued for about three bills I never considered them in competition beyond their budget.

The Vulture HD is the redheaded stepchild of big eyes. If you use a tripod. As a hand held optic the gap narrows. As I recall a good investment bought demo for under four bills.

The Monarch 5 8x56 can be had for $469.
Were the 16x56 priced the same I would be looking through them.

NDhunter · Aug 1, 2017

Nixterdemus said:
Mine, 8.5x50, was made in Japan and discontinued for about three bills I never considered them in competition beyond their budget.

The Vulture HD is the redheaded stepchild of big eyes. If you use a tripod. As a hand held optic the gap narrows. As I recall a good investment bought demo for under four bills.

The Monarch 5 8x56 can be had for $469.
Were the 16x56 priced the same I would be looking through them.

The Monarch 5 16x56 is a very nice large optic. I like mine, and it is
a nice value. I will be doing a comparison sometime, with some big hitters.
Big Eyes binoculars are a very nice way to view.

I find Nikon knows how to do optics right, even if made in China.

Jerry

Nixterdemus · Aug 1, 2017

Take the GPO Passion HD 10x42. According to Allbinos there's too much CA and not enough FOV for the price point. They allege that neither the Conquest HD or Monarch HG can be bested at any point/category though both are similarly priced.

Sounds to me as more of the same w/o longevity or reputation.

ETA: Country of origin is a mixed bag. The larger companies have plenty of control over quality. Smaller guys not so much.

NDhunter · Aug 1, 2017

Nixterdemus said:
Take the GPO Passion HD 10x42. According to Allbinos there's too much CA and not enough FOV for the price point. They allege that neither the Conquest HD or Monarch HG can be bested at any point/category though both are similarly priced.

Sounds to me as more of the same w/o longevity or reputation.

ETA: Country of origin is a mixed bag. The larger companies have plenty of control over quality. Smaller guys not so much.

I think you are repeating some sound sense on how binoculars are made.

There are many differences in design among sellers, and how they
are made, with price points in mfr. and quality control.

Jerry

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