Gull Id - Beddington Farm London/Surrey UK (1 Viewer)

kevinguest · Apr 21, 2009

Hi

This gull was seen on the refuse tip this afternoon....

Could you please assist with its identity?

More pics to follow........

Regards

Kevin

kevinguest · Apr 21, 2009

Additional pics...............

ian hamilton · Apr 21, 2009

first winter iceland,good find.

Mark Lew1s · Apr 21, 2009

Don't think it's an Iceland gull......wouldn't like to say what it is though!!

ian hamilton · Apr 21, 2009

Fat Paul Scholes said:
Don't think it's an Iceland gull......wouldn't like to say what it is though!!

why dont you think it,s a iceland, pale primes stand out a mile

Hotspur · Apr 21, 2009

ian hamilton said:
why dont you think it,s a iceland, pale primes stand out a mile

Barring on the tail, heavy long bill etc

Mark Lew1s · Apr 21, 2009

Well, I've never seen an iceland gull that overall colour before (yes they can appear darkish, but usually not at this time of year, and never greyish like this bird, more like a warm buff).

Also, structually, the bird is all wrong. The head shape strongly suggests herring gull influence to me, and all in all, the bird is far too bulky to be an iceland gull.

On the photo with the outstreched wing you can see that the outer webs of the primaries are dark...this would not be on an iceland gull.....even on a kumleins gull only the outer primaries would show this.

Among other things.

I reckon this is a hybrid, with herring gullx????? (but that greyness is making me think glaucous winged for some reason)

Now, time to make a sharp exit from this gull debate and make room for the guys who will eventually sort this out!

Londonbirder · Apr 21, 2009

Could be Kumliens but not sure.

JANJ · Apr 21, 2009

Certainly not glaucoides or kumlieni due to structure and pattern! Probably a 2cy bird due to pattern and pointed primaries (image 2). Strange unifor upperparts which in the first image gives a contrasting appearance, making the gull look older than it´s belived to be. Probably Herring influence, and x ? or perhaps Herring x Glaucous would be a suggestion.

Check some of Silas images

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=listpictures&photographer_id=60

JanJ

lou salomon · Apr 21, 2009

herring x glaucous was my impression when i saw the pics as well but i hesitated startling this way.. too heavy for iceland, bill more in line with 1st winter herring, wing is very pale though.

London Birder · Apr 21, 2009

can GWG show folded primaries that pale at this age?

G Anderson · Apr 22, 2009

Herring and Glaucous was my first thought but the bill appears too slender even for Herrring? Maybe a small female?

Peter Alfrey · Apr 22, 2009

Gull sp

Hi Kev,
I have never posted on here before but have some extra shots that are on my blog with some comments about my own opinion on it

http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/

Johnny Allan · Apr 22, 2009

Hi Pete,

back to "Nelson's" Gull ?

Woodchatshrike · Apr 22, 2009

Is'nt pink gape a good feature for GWG? I seem to remember being shown photos of the Glos tip bird.

Dermot Breen · Apr 23, 2009

Some shots of pale first-winter Glaucous-winged Gulls.
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/56726047
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/76001560
http://www.pbase.com/ternvomitthief/image/76291001

I've no experience with the species myself but I can say its unlike any Gluscous x Herring hybrid I've come across in the west of Ireland. With 2 or 3 records of pure Glaucous-winged Gull in the UK now isn't it highly likely that a hybrid or two is/are going to show up sooner rather than later (hopefully not in Ireland as we are still waiting for a GWGG).

Dermot

JANJ · Apr 23, 2009

Now, the dificulties involved when attempting to identify strange looking LWHG, is the ability to judge whether it´s an aberrant individual or a hybrid. Most of the time this is a nearly impossible task since mixed characters appears more or less obvious in one individual. One such hybrid that often, but not always, shows rather clear features of both species is Glaucous Gull x Herring Gull.

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/inde...78602&lang=eng

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=muu1196720163&lang=eng

But what do you make of this one?

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=26914

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=26913

or this one?

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=15025

The subject gull doens´t strike me as a Glacucous-winged at all, more of Herring structure in there. The pale wings and uniformly patterned body with washed-out coverts and tail - which seems to be nearly all dark - suggests one of the northern white-winged gulls, except perhaps the tail pattern, question is which? As have been mentioned, Glaucous x Herring seems to be one of the better choices. Would that be because we see the expected bill shape/pattern - structure or/and plumage features associated with these species - or is it a more convinient choise, based on the fact that we can´t deal with such birds on an identification basis?
Anyway, I can´t identify the Beddinton gull other than a possible Glaucous x Herring, being more certain of the Herring influence.

JanJ

Mr Patience · Apr 23, 2009

JANJ said:
The subject gull doens´t strike me as a Glacucous-winged at all, more of Herring structure in there. The pale wings and uniformly patterned body with washed-out coverts and tail - which seems to be nearly all dark - suggests one of the northern white-winged gulls, except perhaps the tail pattern, question is which? As have been mentioned, Glaucous x Herring seems to be one of the better choices. Would that be because we see the expected bill shape/pattern - structure or/and plumage features associated with these species - or is it a more convinient choise, based on the fact that we can´t deal with such birds on an identification basis?
Anyway, I can´t identify the Beddinton gull other than a possible Glaucous x Herring, being more certain of the Herring influence.

JanJ

Well said Jan. A well reasoned reply.

nickyb · Apr 23, 2009

A couple of extra shots taken on 22nd (Weds) of the gull in question courtesy of Garry Messenbird

Cheers
Nick

www.freewebs.com/widerscoped

JANJ · Apr 24, 2009

Great fun with, in this case, gull images, how different they can appear in varies images!
The last image posted here by Nick, second one, suddenly takes on a more GWG (if you like), impression. However, still not a GWG IMO. Note the rather small bill with a straight long gonys angle. In the first image, note the marked contrast between mantle, scapulars - concolorous with tail and to a lesser degree, tertials, with covert region, which would seem odd for a 2cy (first cycle) GWG - at least at this time of year.
The obvious notching on the tertials reaching the greater coverts might seem odd for a GWG, usually not reaching greater coverts:

http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/Glaucous-winged.htm

http://www.garrulax.com/glaucous-wingedgull

http://www.pbase.com/shonn/image/72919756

Some alternative images:

http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/hybrids-thayers.htm

JanJ

Gull Id - Beddington Farm London/Surrey UK (1 Viewer)

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