Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 06:05   #1
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
 
Larry Sweetland's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 6,412
Jungle Crow complex

I've just noticed that the IOC list recognises 3 species in this complex. Can someone please outline their ranges for me? I'd especially like to know if birds in NE China fall within Eastern Jungle Crow under this arrangement.

Many thanks for any clarification,

Larry
Larry Sweetland is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 07:26   #2
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Larry,

In IOC's split (proposed by Rasmussen & Anderton 2005), Eastern & Indian Jungle Crows are monotypic, with ranges as follows:
  • Corvus levaillantii - from extreme SE Nepal eastwards through NE India to Burma, Thailand & N Malay Pen, also Andaman Is
  • Corvus culminatus - Peninsular India & Sri Lanka, north to lowlands of Nepal
All other subspecies are retained within Large-billed Crow C macrorhynchos (including mandschuricus in NE China).

BirdLife International splits Jungle Crow C levaillantii, but including culminatus.

Rasmussen & Anderton 2005 actually suggested a further split of C japonensis (which would include mandschuricus), presumably leaving C macrorhynchos (including philippinus) restricted to Malaysia, Indonesia & Philippines.

Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Thursday 9th July 2009 at 12:41. Reason: spelling
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 10:16   #3
rockfowl
Mark Andrews
 
rockfowl's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Leicester, UK
Posts: 7,908
Hi Richard,

I haven't followed this so it's pretty unclear to me. Brazil states that the split has been proposed giving Japanese Crow C. japonensis (including connectens and osai ) and Large-billed Crow C. macrorhynchos (including mandschuricus and colonorum)

Confused!

Mark
__________________
DigiPics & Artwork - http://www.smandrews.com Digivideos - http://www.youtube.com/user/rockfowlmarkandrews
Support the Oriental Bird Club
rockfowl is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 10:37   #4
dalat
.
 
dalat's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,269
Hi,

the Robson SE-Asia 2008 edition gives:
Large-Billed Crow japonensis
Eastern Jungle Crow levaillantii
Southern Jungle Crow macrorhynchos (including Indochina, though stating that the Indochina population is debated, maybe being Eastern)

Florian
dalat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 10:45   #5
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Yes Mark, it is indeed confusing.

My understanding is that Rasmussen & Anderton suggested splitting all the northern subspecies as C japonensis (including the forms intermedius & tibetosinensis relevant to their field guide). This actually reflects the grouping proposed by Martens et al (2000) tabled in Dickinson, Dekker, Eck & Somadikarta 2004 (Systematic notes on Asian birds. 45. Types of the Corvidae):
http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/43939 (p123-124)

Mark Brazil (2009) mentions a narrower potential split of C japonensis (restricted to the 3 forms which occur in Japan).

Dickinson, Eck & Martens 2004 (Systematic notes on Asian birds. 44. A preliminary review of the Corvidae) includes a detailed review of possible treatments involving up to 7 species, including further potential splits of C philippinus and C osai (including connectens):
http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/43938 (p96-102)

Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:
  • C japonensis (monotypic)
  • C osai (including connectens)
  • C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
  • C culminatus (monotypic)
  • C levaillantii (monotypic)
  • C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
  • C philippinus (monotypic)
But clearly there's some way to go before consensus is reached on a definitive arrangement...

Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Thursday 9th July 2009 at 21:39. Reason: spelling
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 16:31   #6
rockfowl
Mark Andrews
 
rockfowl's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Leicester, UK
Posts: 7,908
Thanks Richard,

Some way to go then!
__________________
DigiPics & Artwork - http://www.smandrews.com Digivideos - http://www.youtube.com/user/rockfowlmarkandrews
Support the Oriental Bird Club
rockfowl is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 9th July 2009, 17:41   #7
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
It'll be interesting to see the arrangement adopted for HBW14 when published later this year (Corvidae authors: dos Anjos, Debus, Madge & Marzluff). Anyone had a preview?

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 10th July 2009, 09:01   #8
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
 
Larry Sweetland's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 6,412
Thanks folks, that simple huh?
Larry Sweetland is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 10th July 2009, 09:17   #9
chowchilla
Maderator.
 
chowchilla's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cairns, Australia.
Posts: 4,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland View Post
Thanks folks, that simple huh?
As if.... So Larry, did you manage to squeeze another tick out of that muddle?
chowchilla is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 10th July 2009, 10:03   #10
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland View Post
Thanks folks, that simple huh?
...and I'm guessing it's not in the front running for your bird of the trip.

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 10th July 2009, 10:51   #11
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:
  • C japonensis (monotypic)
  • C osai (including connectens)
  • C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
  • C culminatus (monotypic)
  • C levaillantii (monotypic)
  • C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
  • C philippinus (monotypic)
When I lived in South-east Asia nineties and early twenties - life was easy, we had only 2 black crows : the Large-billed Corvus macrorhynchos and the Slender-billed C. enca. Today the first one could be up to seven species, what about the second one ?
Daniel Philippe is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 10th July 2009, 15:13   #12
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
When I lived in South-east Asia – nineties and early twenties - life was easy, we had only 2 black crows : the Large-billed Corvus macrorhynchos and the Slender-billed C. enca. Today the first one could be up to seven species...
...or maybe even more: Rasmussen comments "intermedius and tibetosinensis differ markedly in both call-type and plumage, and themselves may represent two species, although they are said to intergrade in C Himalayas".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
...what about the second one ?
Daniel, it's your turn to make the first bid.

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 10th July 2009, 19:46   #13
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Daniel, it's your turn to make the first bid.
Well, I would guess from the literature that up to 5 ssp groups could be recognized:

- C. (e.) enca with compilator, mangoli and celebensis
- C. (e.) violaceus, monotypic
- C. (e.) pusillus, monotypic
- C. (e.) sierramadrensis, monotypic
- C. (e.) samarensis, monotypic

but I am not so sure.
Daniel Philippe is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 10th July 2009, 20:41   #14
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Well, I would guess from the literature that up to 5 ssp groups could be recognized
Slender-billed Crow is unfortunately off the radar from within my rather introspective flat-earth Holarctic comfort zone - so for me it's a completely unknown mythical and exotic creature.

But Rheindt & Hutchinson 2007 [A photoshoot odyssey through the confused avian taxonomy of Seran and Buru (southern Moluccas) - BirdingASIA 7] commented:
  • "We assume that a thorough analysis of vocal data would demonstrate species status for most of the current races in both C. violaceus and C. enca [my emphasis]. So until such a work has been presented, we can only urge birders to tape those crows in the field and be aware of impending splits."
At this rate we'll soon be splitting the subspecies...

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 11th July 2009, 02:09   #15
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
 
Larry Sweetland's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 6,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by chowchilla View Post
As if.... So Larry, did you manage to squeeze another tick out of that muddle?
Rather shamefully a mumbled YES, as I've recently gone over to using the IOC list, more in frustration at the Clements list appearing to ignore just about everyone else (as my half-baked, less than half-informed layman's mind currently sees it.) Nothing to do with the greater number of splits of course .

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!
Larry Sweetland is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 11th July 2009, 06:40   #16
chowchilla
Maderator.
 
chowchilla's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cairns, Australia.
Posts: 4,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland View Post
Rather shamefully a mumbled YES, as I've recently gone over to using the IOC list, more in frustration at the Clements list appearing to ignore just about everyone else (as my half-baked, less than half-informed layman's mind currently sees it.) Nothing to do with the greater number of splits of course .

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!
Funny what you say about Clements... Phil Gregory of Cassowary House hates the way that they (in his words) prevaricate forever over possible splits and other revisions. Mind you he does do consultancy for the IOC...
chowchilla is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 11th July 2009, 17:20   #17
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland View Post
Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!
Well, if all the possible splits and sub-splits are considered (see also post #12), it probably deserves to be on your shortlist for scientific name of the trip:
Corvus (((macrorhynchos) japonensis) intermedius) colonorum mandschuricus
Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Saturday 11th July 2009 at 17:24.
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 17th April 2010, 14:53   #18
Markus Lagerqvist
Registered User
 
Markus Lagerqvist's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post

Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:
  • C japonensis (monotypic)
  • C osai (including connectens)
  • C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
  • C culminatus (monotypic)
  • C levaillantii (monotypic)
  • C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
  • C philippinus (monotypic)

Richard
Has anyone heard any suggestions for English names for these?

Maybe something like this?

C. japonensis - Japanese Crow?
C. osai - Ryukyu Crow?
C. intermedius - ???
C. culminatus - Indian Jungle Crow
C. levaillantii - Indochinese Jungle Crow?
C. macrorhynchos - Sunda Jungle Crow?
C. philippinus - Philippine Jungle Crow?
__________________
Latest bird lifer: Shining Honeycreeper (#5,244)
Latest bird family: Hypocolius (#215)
Latest mammal lifer: Risso's Dolphin (#315)
Web page: pbase.com/lagerqvist
Markus Lagerqvist is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 17th April 2010, 15:16   #19
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
English names

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Lagerqvist View Post
Has anyone heard any suggestions for English names for these?

Maybe something like this?

C. japonensis - Japanese Crow?
C. osai - Ryukyu Crow?
C. intermedius - ???
I already use 'Japanese Crow' (also used by Brazil 2009) and 'Ryukyu Crow' in my own checklist.

Taking post #12 into account, potentially splits intermedius further. I've provisionally used C (m) intermedius 'Himalayan Large-billed Crow' (monotypic) and C (m) colonorum 'Eastern Large-billed Crow' (incl mandshuricus, tibetosinensis) – clunky and unimaginative, I know!

Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Saturday 17th April 2010 at 15:24.
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 5th December 2010, 16:17   #20
jacana
Will Jones
 
jacana's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posts: 4,344
I'm still battling with my Clements to IOC conversion, can anyone help me untangle the Large-billed/Jungle Crow ranges in Thailand. As I see it, Large-billed is at least in the North, And Jungle Crow is in the West and South, Where do the Central/Bangkok birds lie, and the eastern populations?
__________________
Latest Lifer: Dusky Warbler (1864)
Latest UK Lifer: Black-crowned Night Heron (316)
Latest Sweden Lifer: Dusky Warbler (255)
Latest World 2017: Black Guillemot (305)
jacana is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 5th December 2010, 16:41   #21
Xenospiza
Undescribed
 
Xenospiza's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a drawer
Posts: 9,987
I've got "Indochina" (except the north) included in the range for levaillantii, so I assume the birds in Bangkok/East Thailand are Eastern Jungle Crows as well.
Xenospiza is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 6th December 2010, 08:25   #22
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenospiza View Post
I've got "Indochina" (except the north) included in the range for levaillantii, so I assume the birds in Bangkok/East Thailand are Eastern Jungle Crows as well.
Having been watching what the IOC now class as Corvus culminatus in Gujurat last week, it was evident that there were two kinds of bill shapes! One was decurved, and had the appearance of being glued directly to the head, and the other was an extended rough diamond shape, thickest at the middle. Calls appeared identical, but the first shape was predominant, the second seen only once, in the observed individuals in a loose flock of 14 birds at Khejideya. The second shape varied noticeably in size.
Is this known, or is it perhaps a symptom of some disease?
MJB
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 15:31   #23
jacana
Will Jones
 
jacana's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posts: 4,344
Is there any recent information on the distribution of Eastern Jungle and Large-billed Crows in Thailand. We're discussing it in the ID forum and there still appears to be much confusion!

But maybe it's perfectly clear and I'm just being dense!
__________________
Latest Lifer: Dusky Warbler (1864)
Latest UK Lifer: Black-crowned Night Heron (316)
Latest Sweden Lifer: Dusky Warbler (255)
Latest World 2017: Black Guillemot (305)

Last edited by jacana : Wednesday 29th February 2012 at 15:33.
jacana is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 15:41   #24
lewis20126
Registered User
 
lewis20126's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 8,805
Not Thailand but the geographic "boundary" between thw two "species" in Assam is alleged to be the Bramaputra (north / south thereof). Given that it takes a crow less than a minute to fly across this, I suspect that (any?) boundary is not a clear cut as suggested. However if you were dealing with Cupwings (for example), a river of this width might faciltate divergence...

cheers, alan
lewis20126 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 16:00   #25
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacana View Post
Is there any recent information on the distribution of Eastern Jungle and Large-billed Crows in Thailand.
Not recent, but Dickinson et al 2004 (p101) states that Martens et al 2000 considers Corvus levaillantii to occur in "most of Thailand", with C macrorhynchos "seen as reaching further north than Prachuab and east through south-east Thailand into Indochina". But also comments: "Enough adult specimens from Burma, Thailand and Indochina should be re-examined to determine where macrorhynchos becomes levaillantii."

Last edited by Richard Klim : Wednesday 29th February 2012 at 16:31.
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jungle Crow?? fthsm Bird Identification Q&A 8 Friday 7th September 2007 19:04
My Apartment Complex nctexasbirder Texas 4 Saturday 2nd September 2006 02:45
Jungle crow for the database Rakesh Photos of New Species for OPUS 3 Monday 25th April 2005 17:22
Jungle Crow for the database Rakesh Photos of New Species for OPUS 1 Monday 18th April 2005 19:19
green frog complex jonafly Reptiles and Amphibians 8 Tuesday 27th July 2004 11:53

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.25911307 seconds with 34 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 15:01.