LWHG for Lou or other larophile (1 Viewer)

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

I wasn't actually looking at this bird (there being plenty of waders) and as soon as I did it flew off further away Something stuck me as strange about the white face and grey shawl.

Looked extra leggy on the deck, heavy billed.

lou salomon · Jun 1, 2015

hi jane,

quite a nice looking dark 2cy there. i think the long and skinny legs are just fine for a young dark caspian. either that or something much rarer, but i don't guess so.
edit: forget about the rarer variant: heuglini looks more advanced in first summer, usually with replaced secondaries and a lot of coverts. those grey scaps should be 3rd generation ones already.
nice one, how common are cachs at hoylake?

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

They won't get any sharper or brighter, but I can make any parts a lot bigger

lou salomon · Jun 1, 2015

it's all there for caspian, jane.

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

Fabulous - I was worried about how thick the bill looked and large the eye.

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

Still out there is it unusual for one to be tihs dark?

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

lou salomon said:
how common are cachs at hoylake?

No accepted records

SteveClifton · Jun 1, 2015

Jane Turner said:
Still out there is it unusual for one to be tihs dark?

If that's the same bird then surely a LBBGull.

What the previous shots don't reveal is how dark the underwing coverts (probably) are!

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

There was only one gull about. I posted it because it confused me. I'd assumed with out looking at it that it was a GBBG - big bugger with a white head. I never pointed optics at it - but since it landed briefly exactly where I was trying to photograph a Dunlin, I saw it through the viewfinder.

Whilst it was chunky enough to be a GBBG and the head made me think Smiths for a second, it was wingy and very leggy. Then it flew. All I had was the photos. It seemed too dark for Casp the head shape wrong and the bill too massive. I did contemplate LBBG - but it seemed too big and what was left of the the inner pps seemed pale I was thinking poss YLG but didn't really know - hence I posted it for a view pfrom people who have the time and memory for these beasts

tittletattler · Jun 1, 2015

Jane Turner said:
Still out there is it unusual for one to be tihs dark?

The first set of images do give this gull a Caspian feel. But the shot of the bird flying away and the subsequent images show that it has many adult like (third gen?) mantle and scapular feathers.

Is the secondary and inner primary moult not too advanced for anything other than Heuglin's?

Ok, I'll raise an apologetic hand if anyone shouts 'conjecture alert' but this bird needs a closer look.

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

Bugger - does this mean I have to go and find it again? The Dunlin about at the moment are extremely exotic and have a distinctly Siberian feel to them

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

I have about 20 flying away shots btw, since that is what it did mostly. The uwcs do look dark Steve

tittletattler · Jun 1, 2015

Jane Turner said:
Bugger - does this mean I have to go and find it again? The Dunlin about at the moment are extremely exotic and have a distinctly Siberian feel to them

Or it could just be an advanced looking male intermedius. :t: It is a rather dirty looking bird. But worth a good look.

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

Here is the best I can do - cropped as close as possible to maximise fuzzy detail. Light was primaeval!

Jane Turner · Jun 1, 2015

Have pushed the lighting on the underwing. Looks darKish on the uWcs to me - but its backlit and in shadow. Weather is filthy - windows rattling and pelting down with rain, but I'll look in the morning. There is a half decent tide and the small assortment of big Larrys still here do hang out in front of the house.

Its should stand head an shoulders over the rest of them on those stilt legs. Maybe its just been feeding on the same good stuff as this stilt Dunlin

Jane Turner · Jun 2, 2015

Its not in the high tide roost -45 GBBG and about 12 Heriing. No LBBG

Are LBBG/Cach hybrids known?

SteveClifton · Jun 2, 2015

Jane Turner said:
Its not in the high tide roost -45 GBBG and about 12 Heriing. No LBBG

Are LBBG/Cach hybrids known?

Jane,

Quote from British Birds 90: 25-62 Jan-Feb 1997 (Garner & Quinn)
L.F.Fuscus x L Heuglini/L.C.Cachinnans: "Various hybrid combinations have been reported mainly from Volga basin"

It's hardly surprising that at least a few hybrids have been recorded. Gulls are, it seems, even more promiscuous than ducks!

I think what this bird demonstrates is how similar LBBGulls can appear to Caspian Gull in certain plumages, especially when certain key features are not visible. That said, even pale underwing coverts are not diagnostic of Caspian in 1st/2nd calendar year birds as we used to think they were!

lou salomon · Jun 2, 2015

hi again,

and apologies for jumping in with a seemingly definite statement and then retrieving. it was mostly lack of time for a thorough analysis after.
as for the underwing coverts: they can be really dark in 1st cycle caspian gulls. and in the first set of pics i didn't see how dark the adult type 3rd generation scapulars were.
what i saw (and still see) pro cachinnans: whitish head and dark shawl, even going around the neck - common in caspian, less so in other taxa. longish legs. venetian blind pattern in primaries (just right for a dark caspian, less so for a LBBG of any kind), apparently clear cut and rel. narrow tail band from below, with more markings on upper tail, suggesting the cachinnans-typical narrow parallel median bands. bill rel. weak, not high, with a pointed tip and just a slight gonys angle. and yes, dark individuals can not only show dark underwing but also this kind of dark markings to body, which by the grey look of them are 2nd generation body feathers.
what i DON'T like for it being a cachi: the apparently dark 3rd gen. scaps (hard to assess without comparison to nearby adult HG or LBBGs) and the fairly strong checkered inner greater coverts. now, in either YLG and cachs i have seen darker grey 3rd gen. scaps than they would be as full adult and some stronger pattern can be accepted for caspian if the rest fits. this said - i'd probably leave this bird unidentified or at least we should ask some more gull people for their opinion. it's not a heuglini, imo, they look fresher in all plumages, even in late may. of all the fuscus-taxa this one would tendentially be the leggiest one.
i know, andy and steve see a clear LBBG here and i might have too little experience with graellsii, especially in may-june, but i don't recall having seen such an individual (which doesn't mean anything...).
western LBBG in may and june:
http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg2cya/lbbg2cymay.html
http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg2cyb/grael2cyjune.html

can i link this thread to FB european gulls and gull-research-talk forums to get more views on it...?

lou salomon · Jun 2, 2015

rich bonser and even mars muusse say it's a graellsii. 1st summer LWHGs....:-C

J Jones · Jun 2, 2015

Struggling to get past Lesser Black-backed Gull here.

Cheers,

Josh

LWHG for Lou or other larophile (1 Viewer)

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