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Old Thursday 13th April 2017, 11:14   #1
maico
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What causes Habicht 8x30 W veiling glare ?

A while back I remember reading a detailed explanation from one of the forum experten on this but can't find the posts.

What would the solution be and why do Swarovski ignore updates ?

Bellow are diagrams to visualize general porro layout in 2 Zeiss and a Habicht 10x
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Old Thursday 13th April 2017, 11:57   #2
normjackson
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http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=278666

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=114977

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=313054

Good topic. (Haven't had chance meself to read these threads).

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Old Thursday 13th April 2017, 13:05   #3
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Here's a photo and explanation of the veiling glare in my old 8x30 Habicht from 1990. I bought a new 8x30 W GA Habicht last year. It looks just the same.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.ph...7&postcount=23
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Old Thursday 13th April 2017, 23:11   #4
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Henry:

There was a short term rage over the Habicht 8x30 porro some time ago.

What do you like about it, and compare it to the best Nikon porro models, like
the E or EII and SE.

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Old Saturday 15th April 2017, 20:17   #5
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Jerry,

The only things I really like about the current 8x30 Habicht are the state of the art light transmission and color accuracy.

No 8x30/32 is my cup of tea. The axial image quality and ease of view of every one I've seen is obviously inferior to the 8x56 I normally use, but if the comparison is limited to just the ones you listed I would say the Swarovski is superior to my copies of the three Nikons only for light transmission and color accuracy. I haven't seen a current production 8x30 EII with the latest Nikon coatings, so I don't know how that would compare to the Habicht.

All three of my Nikons have a bit sharper axial images than the Habicht because their axial aberrations, both spherical and chromatic, are lower. Off-axis the E is similar to the Habicht, the EII is better and the SE is much better. All three Nikons also have better glare resistance.

In spite of all that I wouldn't want to part with the Habicht because I like having a reference standard for light transmission and color accuracy around and it's a kind of sentimental favorite. A Habicht 8x30 W GA was one of the first binoculars I bought way back in 1986.

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Old Tuesday 18th April 2017, 05:39   #6
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What the links do not explain is how and why the 10x Habicht show nearly none (or very minimal amounts) of this veiling glare.

To be congruent, (just like the majority of binoculars) the entire current flagship of the 'Swarovision' line are terrible performers when it comes to veiling glare. Compare any current Swarovision to a 10x Canon or 7x Fujinon, or a 10x Habicht(!) and prepare to be gobsmacked by the difference. I've done every imaginable direct comparison.

This merely highlights the fact that no pair of binoculars are perfect.

Pay your price, and choose your shortcoming :)

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Old Tuesday 18th April 2017, 12:05   #7
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Hello,

About veiling glare, that "milky" veil looking close toward the sun, my Sw Habicht 10x40 is, clearly, better than the Zeiss HT 10x42. VERY clear! I would like to compare my former Zeiss FL 10x42 with my present HT. If I remember well, that FL was better...
And, by the way, my HT 8x42 is better in this than the 10x42.
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Old Tuesday 18th April 2017, 16:24   #8
henry link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathaus View Post
What the links do not explain is how and why the 10x Habicht show nearly none (or very minimal amounts) of this veiling glare.

To be congruent, (just like the majority of binoculars) the entire current flagship of the 'Swarovision' line are terrible performers when it comes to veiling glare. Compare any current Swarovision to a 10x Canon or 7x Fujinon, or a 10x Habicht(!) and prepare to be gobsmacked by the difference. I've done every imaginable direct comparison.

This merely highlights the fact that no pair of binoculars are perfect.

Pay your price, and choose your shortcoming :)
I can offer a few suggestions for why the 10x40 Habicht might have less veiling glare than the 8x30.

Firstly, reflections at the edge of the 10x40's larger exit pupil would be a little less likely to enter the pupil of the eye under daylight conditions.

Secondly, both binoculars use the same eyepiece and prism housing, but the focal ratio of the 10x40 objective is about 6% lower than the focal ratio of the 8x30 objective. That means that, compared to the apparent size of the first prism shelf aperture as viewed through the eyepiece, the apparent size of the 10x40 objective lens appears to be about 6% larger than the apparent size of the 8x30 objective lens. That alone would allow the prism shelf aperture to more effectively mask any objective cell reflections in the 10x40.

Finally, I assume the ribbed baffling cone in the 10x40 is a different one from the 8x30 cone. It may be sized more appropriately so that it does a better job of masking objective cell reflections.

If you have both the 8x30 and the 10x40 available you should be able to examine the interiors with a magnifier under conditions that cause glare in the 8x30 and determine what is different about the interior of the 10x40.

Henry

Last edited by henry link : Tuesday 18th April 2017 at 17:18.
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 00:07   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry link View Post
I can offer a few suggestions for why the 10x40 Habicht might have less veiling glare than the 8x30.

Firstly, reflections at the edge of the 10x40's larger exit pupil would be a little less likely to enter the pupil of the eye under daylight conditions.

Secondly, both binoculars use the same eyepiece and prism housing, but the focal ratio of the 10x40 objective is about 6% lower than the focal ratio of the 8x30 objective. That means that, compared to the apparent size of the first prism shelf aperture as viewed through the eyepiece, the apparent size of the 10x40 objective lens appears to be about 6% larger than the apparent size of the 8x30 objective lens. That alone would allow the prism shelf aperture to more effectively mask any objective cell reflections in the 10x40.

Finally, I assume the ribbed baffling cone in the 10x40 is a different one from the 8x30 cone. It may be sized more appropriately so that it does a better job of masking objective cell reflections.

If you have both the 8x30 and the 10x40 available you should be able to examine the interiors with a magnifier under conditions that cause glare in the 8x30 and determine what is different about the interior of the 10x40.

Henry
Henry

Some interesting points you've noted here. However, viewing through both bins in glare conditions, the difference would appear to be far far greater than the sum of the relatively small differences in specification (which you note) between the two binoculars. Re glare control, The 8x30 Habicht would be down the 'poor' end of the performance spectrum, and the 10x Habicht would be right up at the 'excellent' end of glare control spectrum. Quite bizarre.

....yet, if the 8x30 is indeed on the absolute threshold of various parameters such as focal length, prism shelf aperture and exit pupil, then perhaps the very small differences in spec could account for the dramatic difference in glare control.

I'll make a point of checking the baffling in both.
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 21:23   #10
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Originally Posted by Rathaus View Post
....yet, if the 8x30 is indeed on the absolute threshold of various parameters such as focal length, prism shelf aperture and exit pupil, then perhaps the very small differences in spec could account for the dramatic difference in glare control.
That's right. The baffling of the 8x30 is just a little bit off, but that little bit is enough to allow reflections from the shiny objective lens cell to reach the eyepiece and then the eye. In the photo I linked to you can see that the problem is a confined to very narrow ring of bright reflection, which appears to the viewer to be just outside the edge of the exit pupil. A slightly smaller baffle (or the same one placed a little closer to the objective lens) would fix the whole problem.
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 03:16   #11
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To start with, here's the objective side of a current 10x40 Habicht

Edit...oh dear...the image is too large.


Henry,
Where shall I direct the light and camera to ensure the most revealing/strategic photos of the innards of each Habicht? (I have a couple of Loups 8x and 10x but not sure if these are necessary)
I'm terrible with a camera but I'll give it a go.

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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 03:27   #12
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A photo made from the objective side won't tell us anything about internal surfaces that reflect toward the eyepiece. Only the reflections visible from the eyepiece end cause glare.
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 03:40   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry link View Post
A photo made from the objective side won't tell us anything about internal surfaces that reflect toward the eyepiece. Only the reflections visible from the eyepiece end cause glare.
Henry,
You wrote -

"If you have both the 8x30 and the 10x40 available you should be able to examine the interiors with a magnifier under conditions that cause glare in the 8x30 and determine what is different about the interior of the 10x40"


...do you have any suggestions re how to go about this...and how to take a meaningful photo of this?

Last edited by Rathaus : Thursday 27th April 2017 at 04:00.
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 11:56   #14
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Rathaus,

See if the description of how the photos in this post were made is helpful. I use a DSLR at the closest focus of the longest zoom setting on the kit lens (55mm). I don't know how well a phone camera will work.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.ph...84&postcount=1

Even if you can't photograph the binocular interiors you can certainly examine them with one of your magnifiers by just positioning the magnifier behind the binocular eyepiece under lighting conditions that cause glare in the 8x30. Move the magnifier back and forth until the interior comes into focus. Tripod mounting the binocular makes it easier.

Henry

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Old Saturday 29th April 2017, 11:17   #15
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From what I've seen there are rather clearcut differences between the three Habicht porros:
  • The 8x30 is the one with the most problems and very obvious veiling glare in most conditions. IMO it's even worse than the Svarovision 8x32.
  • The 10x40 is quite a bit better, though not quite perfect. It's somewhat better than many roofs though.
  • The best by far is the 7x42 with its tiny field of view. I can't see any veiling glare at all, and even with strong light sources just outside the field of view it behaves very well indeed.

All observations based on extensive experience with the 7x42 and the 10x40, and rather less with the 8x30.

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Old Tuesday 9th May 2017, 12:59   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maico View Post

why do Swarovski ignore updates ?
You get a lot of value for money with a Habicht, because all investments have long since been written off and the all-important coatings have been updated regularly. A redesign will add considerably to the price and then it would be an Expensive porro trying to compete with roofs.

Like every other binocular the Habicht, any Habicht, has shortcomings. Its a compromise. Nothing is perfect. Its still an excellent choice even with the veiling glare which, as usual, is greatly exagerated. Like RB with a modern Swaro or the blueish colours of a Zeiss. Nitpicking at a very high level.
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Old Tuesday 9th May 2017, 14:38   #17
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The veiling glare of the Habicht 8x30 W for me was a deal breaker. It was the worst binocular I have ever used in this regard. It was totally unusable under sunny conditions trying to look up a vertical slope in a mountain canyon too observe mountain goats. I sold mine the next day.
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Old Tuesday 9th May 2017, 17:56   #18
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It was totally unusable under sunny conditions trying to look up a vertical slope in a mountain canyon too observe mountain goats. I sold mine the next day.
If thats what you do 90% of the time with a bino...
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Old Wednesday 10th May 2017, 00:15   #19
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It was totally unusable under sunny conditions trying to look up a vertical slope in a mountain canyon too observe mountain goats. I sold mine the next day.
I hear what you're saying....however, regarding the critical observation of sunbathed 'goats on slopes' from deep canyons...it sounds mighty interesting, but I'm not sure I can see it happening for myself any time soon.
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Old Wednesday 10th May 2017, 01:22   #20
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I hear what you're saying....however, regarding the critical observation of sunbathed 'goats on slopes' from deep canyons...it sounds mighty interesting, but I'm not sure I can see it happening for myself any time soon.
The veiling glare happens anytime you observe at a steep angle so if you are looking at a bird high up in a tree or trying to see hawks high among cliffs it is there. It is the worst veiling glare I have ever seen in any binocular even cheap ones. It is not just glare that is bothersome it totally covers your FOV. I personally would never buy another pair of Habicht's 8x30 W. It is kind of like the Taylor Swift song " We are never, ever, ever, getting back together".
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Old Wednesday 10th May 2017, 01:30   #21
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If thats what you do 90% of the time with a bino...
No, but observing wildlife or birds from a lower vantage point looking up is common here with our high Rocky Mountains. If a binocular can't cut it I just have no need for it. I have no problem in that respect with my Canon 10x42 IS-L, Tract Toric 8x42 or Leupold Mojave 8x32. No veiling glare in any of them. Henry Link described the cause of the veiling glare in detail in the Habicht 8x30 W.

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Old Wednesday 10th May 2017, 01:53   #22
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Originally Posted by Rathaus View Post
I hear what you're saying....however, regarding the critical observation of sunbathed 'goats on slopes' from deep canyons...it sounds mighty interesting, but I'm not sure I can see it happening for myself any time soon.
It is too bad you even replied to this post.

This guy only takes a quick look, no real experience of the optics
he talks about, a very unreliable source.

Jerry
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Old Wednesday 10th May 2017, 09:23   #23
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I have not had the pleasure of using a Habicht but having used a multi coated 8x30 Jenoptem quite a bit and recently having had the chance to try an 8x30 Oberkochen, I do wonder whether the older 8x30 porro designs may not cope as well near strong sunlight as more modern binoculars. When I tried pointing the 8x30 Oberkochen near the sun (obviously not into it) at around 6.30 or so in the evening UK time there was so much glare that the image could hardly be seen. I had a 8x30 SLC with me to make direct comparisons with and the latter was very significantly superior. The 8x30 Jenoptem was somewhat better, probably because of the multi-coating, but still affected. I try to choose viewing spots with the sun behind me whenever possible, but you can't control where targets pop up, or fly to.
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Old Wednesday 10th May 2017, 15:35   #24
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Regarding flare, glare and ghosting I am pretty sure that Dennis is accurate despite Jerry's comments.

For me, my early sample 8x42 Monarch HG is poor. The Zeiss 8x32 Conquest HD disappointing, and many other well regarded binoculars are not up to my standards of night time observing in severe light pollution and into street lights.
But my observations are not of birds or Men staring at Goats in the daytime.
The best for me at the moment is the 10x42 Conquest HD, with the 12x50 Leica Ultravid and Canon 10x42 L not far behind.
But I use the 8.5x44 HR/5 Swift a lot and it is not good for flare, glare and ghosts. So I don't use it where this is a problem.

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Old Wednesday 31st May 2017, 15:38   #25
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Insufficient blackening for sure

Thanks, Henry, for posting that again - so the front/objectiv side diameter of the baffling cone is too wide?

To my eyes, the blackening inside the Habicht is absolutely insufficient. The big cone baffle is rippled, and the grooves are sheer silver metal. Next baffle is also silvery metal instead of black.

It should be so easy to improve on this for Swarovski, it´s a shame really. Some more black colour. The whole baffling stuff is way too reflective (that is why I swear on some short homemade sunshades which do improve performance quite a bit).

I am seriously thinking about getting a special treatment for my Habicht, and not from Swarovski.

Nevertheless, this little bin keeps amazing me. Had another sample of the 8x30 E2 recently, but the view is so dull, dark and red compared to the Habicht that I just couldn´t keep it. But Nikon is even a more hopeless case than Swarovski caring a bit more about a 70 year old design...

http://www.greatestbinoculars.com/al...0e2review.html

Last edited by Tobias Mennle : Wednesday 31st May 2017 at 15:39. Reason: spelling
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