[Jasonbirder]

OK then, come one come all, air your prejudices! So many recent threads seem to have touched on this issue or been diverted onto it…
Carlos` thread about birding in Great Yarmouth Cemetery
Harry`s about the recent rarities in Ireland and many more…..
It seems there are plenty of people here with strong views on the subject so now’s your chance to dive in and make them known!
As I`ve kicked off the thread I don`t want to “get my retaliation in first” so I`ll comment back later but things that occur to me are…
Can anyone say they`ve never twitched?
Why does it arouse such indignation in some people?
Whats the best and worst behaviour people have experienced?
Who`d suppress birds and why?
Away you go all……

[birdman]

In an attempt to pour some serious oil, before the waters have begun to get troubled, it is my opinion that "Ornithologist" and "Twitcher" are opposite ends of the same stick, with "Birdwatcher" somewhere in the middle.

That is not to say that any is more or less valid than any other… and, of course, all are capable of obnoxious or courteous behaviour.

Personally, I have "twitched" (a Spoonbill at Blacktoft Sands), but I haven't "been on a twitch" where there have been a number of other birders "after" the same rarity.

As such, hardened twitchers might not consider my twitch to be valid.

It's all about degree, really.

Also (again IMHO) one shouldn't confuse suppression (bad) with protection (good).

[Michael Frankis]

Originally posted by birdman
It is my opinion that "Ornithologist" and "Twitcher" are opposite ends of the same stick, with "Birdwatcher" somewhere in the middle.

Hi Birdman,

Must admit, that's not how I'd see it at all - to me, ornithologists are like professional athletes, and twitchers / birders are amateur athletes, very often still at the forefront of athletics (like Olympic athletes), while birdwatchers are sunday joggers - people who still greatly enjoy their exercise, but don't take it so seriously as the other two groups, not feeling under any imperative to 'win their race', or just entering local amateur events, rather than high profile national or international events.

Michael

[willimac]

Used to go on frequent twitches , if I wanted to see the bird I went, still go by the same rules, if it interests me I will go. I suppose I have been fortunate to only once come across unpleasant behaviour, and the offenders were quickly put in their place by the majority. What it all boils down to is twitcher, birdwatcher, orinithologist or whatever it doesnt matter, you get a**seh*les in every walk of life, and those are the ones that we should be rising up against, dont let a vocal minority ruin whatever you happen to be doing.

Will

[CJW]

This has been done done to death over the years.
At the end of the day as Will indicated, the vocal minority have, and will, always rule the roost. It's a shame because as an ex-twitcher (and it's only because moving to the IOM made it prohibitively expensive that I'm an 'ex'), I met many a great birder/birdwatcher/ornithologist who were both kind and helpful. I can honestly say that in nearly 30 years birding, I have never encountered any bad behaviour on any major twitch.
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, it's only the (very rare) incidents that attract attention and nobody hears about the countless twitches, often with thousands of people present, that go off without a 'hitch'.
Don't tar all twitchers with the same brush.

[birdman]

Originally posted by Michael Frankis
Hi Birdman,

Must admit, that's not how I'd see it at all - to me, ornithologists are like professional athletes, and twitchers / birders are amateur athletes, very often still at the forefront of athletics (like Olympic athletes), while birdwatchers are sunday joggers - people who still greatly enjoy their exercise, but don't take it so seriously as the other two groups, not feeling under any imperative to 'win their race', or just entering local amateur events, rather than high profile national or international events.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Depends on which criteria you use for measurement I suppose.

In my example I was thinking of the "study-watch-see" side of things. Your "professional-amateur-casual" aspect is just as valid.

Ultimately (and I think there is a general agreement here), it's the individual who is or is not the "problem", not his or her chosen activity.

[Charles Harper]

Wish I could tell you my James Clements story, but it would be unethical...

[Edward]

....we're waiting Chuck.

[Jasonbirder]

Everyone seems to have been far too balanced so far! I must admit I posted it to stir up a bit of controversy but also (on a more sensible note) because it winds me up when I read a pointless anti-twitching tirade on the forums.
We all enjoy our hobby whether it is chasing rare birds, covering a local patch, digiscoping or just feeding the birds in our garden. I travel all over the country myself and can honestly say that on the whole Birders are the friendliest, best behaved group of people I have ever encountered....there`s never even any litter left behind. Most are unfailingly helpful to others whatever their level of expertise.
I`m no paragon of virtue but i will always help anyone out, let people have a look thro` my scope etc and there`s nothing I like better than standing around discussing a birds behaviour/ID. Most birders are the same (or better).
Now come on....someone tell me how evil I am....I`ll be off to see the Taverner`s Canada Goose at Caerlaverock at the weekend (unless something else comes up on the pager!)

[Brian Stone]

You're really, really evil Jason.

[Charles Harper]

You sound pretty balanced to me, Jason. Good twitchers aren't evil. There's plenty of coagulated gore on the old threads, if you're really aching for it...

No way, Edward. In person only.

[andythomas]

1. Any travelling involved to go birdwatching should be on foot or by bike. Cars, buses, trains, planes etc can not be used. Only a twitcher would use up valuable fossil fuels just to go and see a bird.

2. No visits to any location where birds are known to be present, e.g. Avocets at Minsmere, Mallards at the local park. Any visits to somewhere you suspect there are any birds is twitching.

3. No flushing of birds. If you are walking along and spot a bird, turn 180 degrees and walk away from the bird. Only a twitcher would deliberately approach a bird and risk disturbing it just to selfishly get a better look at it.

4. Spend as much time as possible looking at every bird you encounter, be it a Magpie, Canada Goose etc. Make sure you note all aspects of plumage, behaviour etc. Only a twitcher would spend less than 10 minutes looking at a bird before moving on to look for another bird.

5. Try to see as few species of birds in a year as possible. Don’t make a list of the birds you have seen, not even mentally. Only twitchers make lists and try to see more birds.

[Jasonbirder]

:) Thats more like it!!
You`ve put a smile on my face during a hard afternoon in the office.
Though perhaps I should be looking out of the window noting the plumage variation in the Feral pigeons outside.

[Jasonbirder]

But with reference to Your point No.4 Who twitched the Magpie on St Martins in for their Scillies list?

[Colin]

Maybe the word 'twitcher' is a too general or wide a term. For example, someone who goes out of their way to see a rarish bird would be said to be a twitcher but there are good twitchers and bad twitchers. By bad twitchers I do not mean those that trample peoples gardens, trepass in general or deliberately flush a tired migrant. These people are simply irresponsible. I mean by bad twitching, simply seeing the bird in question and leaving, whereas the good twitcher uses the opportunity to glean as much as possible such as sexng and ageing the bird, noting moult, looking for a second bird (mate or otherwise), photographing the bird, noting the habitat, behaviour etc.. In short they are going out of their way to gain good field experience for the next time. That next time need not necessarily be to see the same species but to see a similar species by elimination of another by using previous knowledge. For example, seeing a Yellow-browed Warbler and then seeing a Humes Warbler at a later date. Maybe we need two terms.

I have known the range of knowledge that twitchers possess can vary considerably. I have heard people at a twitch asking someone else what does the bird (being twitched) look like. They simply have not done their homework whereas at the other end of the scale there are some of the most knowledgeable birders going who would be called twitchers because they travel to see birds AND take the opportunity to learn. They have in many cases accumulated a good grounding in common birds FIRST and then amassed a large list as opposed to amassing a large list full stop.

I have spoken with Bill Oddie (yes Euan, I have) and he dislikes being called a twitcher, generally by the public who do not know the meaning of the term and he spends time trying to tell them what a twitcher does. He has explained this in some of his lectures. What he is trying to say is that he doesn't just tick birds and does nothing else. I suggested that a good analogy for the non birding public would be to say to them that calling a birder a twitcher is like calling a motorcycle enthusiast a Hell's Angel.


Well, there should be something to discuss in what I have written.


PS - Apologises to any Hell Angels reading my post.

[christineredgate]

Originally posted by Michael Frankis
Hi Birdman,

Must admit, that's not how I'd see it at all - to me, ornithologists are like professional athletes, and twitchers / birders are amateur athletes, very often still at the forefront of athletics (like Olympic athletes), while birdwatchers are sunday joggers - people who still greatly enjoy their exercise, but don't take it so seriously as the other two groups, not feeling under any imperative to 'win their race', or just entering local amateur events, rather than high profile national or international events.

Michael

I tried to pick up Birdman's saying,"orthinologists at one end Twitchers at the other and Bird watchers somewhere in the middle" Hope I have copied correctly Birdman,memory not good.
but to return to Jason's starter thread.Does it really matter,why is it so important to "have the gloves off ,as it were".I find that often these threads tend to turn into slanging matches,people do tend to get carried away,and yes I include myself.
Everything these days has to be categorised,and fitted into little slots ,everything must be politically correct,so to speak.I would have thought that both Michaels description and Birdmans are so very similar.Everyone has a true affinity for the love and welfare of birds and wildlife and by natural curiosity needs to find out more and study habits etc..
In this small village I have frquently heard the word twitcher bandied around,but it is usually used by people who have never set foot in the great outdoors in their lives,esp visitors who seem to spend all their time in the local pub.
Everyman to his own,but as far as I 'm concerned just a general interest in the birds and wildlife of our planet,but each person has his/her own stage,which has been much better explained ,I think by Michael..
Oh,and this morning I saw the first Shelducks in the bay.we usually have lots,so these must be the 1st arrivals for the winter.
Christine.

[christineredgate]

Originally posted by Colin
Maybe the word 'twitcher' is a too general calling a birder a twitcher is like calling a motorcycle enthusiast a Hell's Angel.


Well, there should be something to discuss in what I have written.


PS - Apologises to any Hell Angels reading my post.

Well,Colin,it was not me who brought bikes into this thread this time.But your comments re Hells Angels just go to prove my thread above.Everything and everyone must be stereotyped and put into a little box with a descriptive label.
Yes Colin,I did use to ride with the Chapters in the 50-60's.Only pillion in those days,and yes I still have some of my chapter badges sewn onto a denim offcut,which was worn over a blackleather jacket.Quite scary it could appear to the common or garden lager louts and teeny thugs,but guess what Colin,who is it these days organises most of the toy runs,and the Easter egg runs in aid of childrens homes and to top up Xmas stockings for the more deprived children in inner cities.The Triumph Owners club in Nottingham for the Notts one,and likewise all around the country large groups of bikers give up their time and money for charitable causes.But who gets banned from a pub for wearing a leather jacket,a jacket which can cost a couple of hundred pounds,whil'st who is allowed to go into a pub after say a football match,wearing a cheap £25 jobbie from the local market and then with his cronies proceeds to smash the place up ,plus everyone elses windows on his way home.
Sorry,about that folks,but I really do feel very strongly re discrimination when it is unneccessary,but surely again,to return to Jason's point are all bird watchers labelled "twitchers".What is the definition of a twitcher.Does it really matter !.
Christine.
I now need a stiff one of these!!

[Jasonbirder]

Was just about to agree wholeheartedly with Colin, then I stopped and thought....no! Surely thats just pure birding snobbishness! Why do you have to be an expert for it to be OK to enjoy rare birds?
Thats like saying you can`t watch Man Utd without spending a couple of years watching non-league football!
I was just thinking of the sheer unalloyed pleasure some "less experienced" (horrible term - apologies) got whilst I was at a recent Pallas` Warbler Twitch, you certainly don`t have to know your Malr stripe from your reverse migration to appreciate the beauty of that little gem or feel humbled by the incredible journey that little waif has made to arrive here.
Birding is a lesiure activity isn`t it....to be enjoyed not endured!

[Al Downie]

Originally posted by Jasonbirder
Why does it arouse such indignation in some people?
Who`d suppress birds and why?

Me! I'd suppress birds! If I ever found something that was unusual (and if I'm ever able to identify it as such), why on earth would I want to spark off a daft, competitive feeding frenzy of 'twitchers'???

Theirs *is* a completely different game, just like collecting stamps; it's got nothing to do with the study of birds at all. It's just about making a list that's longer than someone else's. Freud would understand it I'm sure, but I don't.

And as for all that bollocks about professional athletes and Sunday joggers, well that illustrates the point FAR more eloquently than I ever could! This is simple birdwatching we're talking about - don't you think you're losing the plot a wee bit? Carry on like that, and you'll soon become exploited by sports shops selling special high-speed twitching shoes...

Al

[Jasonbirder]

Thats more like it!! Maybe things are heating up...

"If I ever found something that was unusual (and if I'm ever able to identify it as such), why on earth would I want to spark off a daft, competitive feeding frenzy of 'twitchers'???"
Perhaps that should really read, "If i`m fortunate enough to enjoy a rare bird, why would I want to share it with others so they can enjoy it too..."

And this "study of birds" stuff is a complete red herring....Birders don`t study birds, its a lesiure activity, and the record of a Stonechat on someones local patch is as useless and irrelevent in the great scheme of things as the record of a Siberian Rubythroat on Fair Isle.

Finding and counting birds on your patch or in an underwatched coastal area has no more intrinsic value than queuing up to see a Subalpine Warbler through a gap in a hedge at Spurn point.

Lets analyse my weekend and see how ridiculous your statement is....Saturday Morning (early) checked local patch (Virtuous) but was hoping i`d find something unusual (not so virtuous)....Saturday Afternoon walk in local park with wife and daughter Bins only no Scope saw only common birds (extremely virtuous). Sunday Morning Great Yarmouth Cemetry saw Olive-backed Pipit & Pallas` Warbler (sinner, sinner).
Now come on how daft is that!

[Colin]

Jason,

Why do you have to be an expert for it to be OK to enjoy rare birds?

I never said that you have to be an expert to enjoy birds.

Christine,
I apologised for the reference to Hells Angels and it was not edited in afterwards. Note there is no edit time etc at the bottom of the post.

[Michael Frankis]

Enjoyed Al's wind-up - sorry, its a bit too obviously a wind-up . . . 'specially when a look at Al's other recent posts reveals he's just bought the latest "special high-speed twitching gear..."

Michael

[Jasonbirder]

OK i`ll retreat into my shell now for missing Al`s post as an obvious wind up!
Sorry for being controversial....but I started the thread (as the title suggests) with my tongue firmly in cheek.
But surely given the number of times people post messages decrying the behavior of "twitchers" someone could have had a pop here!!!

[andythomas]

Thanks to Colin and Al for their endorsement of rules 4 and 5.

They've reminded me of two more valuable rules.

6. If you must keep a list, make sure it's in the right order. The correct order for UK birdwatchers is Starling, House Sparrow, Blue Tit, Blackbird, Chaffinch, Greenfinch, Collared Dove, Great Tit, Woodpigeon, Robin etc. Only a twitcher would see a Pectoral Sandpiper before a Hawfinch, or a Yellow-browed Warbler before a Chough. A full list can be found in the forthcoming book "Birds In the Right Order - How to get a Lifelist of 100 in less than 25 Years".

7. If you see a bird you don't recognise, make no effort whatsoever to identify it. Ignore it, walk away and erase it from your memory. Don't get Collins out of your pocket to check the ID. In all probability the bird will be rare one, and you will be instantly transported to a twitch of your own making, guaranteeing a place in the fires of hell for eternity.

Michael, how can you compare ornithologists to professional athletes. Don't you realise they're just a bunch of overpaid slackers on performance-enhancing drugs? And as for the athletes...

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Andy - I'm with you all the way on the seeing things in the right order doctrine, although on the east coast I would say that a Chough would generate far more evil twitchery than a YB Warbler. Having said that YB Warblers are so full of the exotic promise of foriegn climes that perhaps seeing them too early in one's career is not entirely wholesome.

Spar - I think there may be a difference between nest sites and vagrants in that vagrants usually only hang around for a short time whereas rare breeders (although Peregrines aren't all that rare these days) tend to come back to the same place for many years, including after the RSPB circus has moved on to another town. A site holding a vagrant is only likely to be disturbed in the very short term, whereas nesting species are more of a long term concern.