brocknroller
porromaniac
Brock,
Your replies had me chuckling, but after carefully reading them, I am more mystified than ever as to the nature of some of the ergonomic challenges that you are struggling with.
I had no idea that I was so talented! I’ll have to add that somewhere in my CVI don’t know if my hands are as large as yours (my palm is wide, my thumb is fat, but I think my fingers are shorter), but I can hold some small bins in a way that feels very natural to me. Am I a finger contortionist? I’ll attach some picks of me holding a small bin (Leica 8x20 Ultravid) so you can judge for yourself. My hands with that bin overlap one another more than I prefer, but otherwise the position is not much different from how I hold full-sized bins. Note in the pics that I have intentionally unfolded the 8x20 Ultravid asymmetrically in order to make more room for my right thumb and extend the reach to the focuser so that my index finder doesn't overshoot it like it would with symmetrical single-hinged 8x20 (or even some 8x32) roofs.
I’m not going to argue the specifics of the Nikon 8x32 HG—it’s not one of my favorites (mainly for its poor “hang”)—and I’ve not argued that every binocular will fit every user well. Rather, my argument is that describing a binocular as “too small” for one’s hands is not helpful for anyone (including, we can hope, binocular designers) trying to understand the problem being confronted. I argue that the match between bino size and hand size is not itself the issue, but instead, the problem relates to the type of grip that one prefers. I contend that many folks with large hands get on well with small bins. But I’m not against improving bins to fit even more users, hence my interest in your case. I like the ergonomics of Swarovski 8x32 EL tremendously, but for me, the good thing about it is not the length, but rather the narrow barrels with wide gap between them (lots of room for fingers) which allows a wrap-around grip. Consequently, I imagine the CL might be just as good even though it is shorter (though I note that for those who don’t employ their middle finger in focus adjustment, the CL’s wider hinge next to the focuser wouldn’t as easily allow for the middle finger to get a wrap-around grip, as it can with the 8x32 EL).
What? I don’t understand. How do thumb indents provide support? Why are your thumbs dangling, and not curled up under (and perhaps between, under the hinge area) the barrels? The biomechanics of a solid grip for you must be very different from mine. For me, to hold bins so they don’t shake during viewing (and are minimally so perturbed while adjusting the focus), and so I can smoothly pan and be comfortable all day, I just need for them to be surrounded by my hands in a grip that, while solid, is still very relaxed (A firm, muscle-invested grip causes shaking). I think of them as being imbedded, so to speak, in my relaxed hands. With full and 2/3 sized bins, I hold them deeply cupped in my palms with (or at least surrounded by upper palm, web of thumb, base of thumb), and with small bins, sort of within my right fist with my left hand cupped over it. I think I rotate my right hand around to the bottom of the bins more than you do.
I certainly don’t advocate prayer as the solution to this (or other) problems. I’m not sure if it is, by itself, universally a problem. In any case, I suggest replacing the prayer position with a modified “solidarity clasp” (see attached picture). Big bins get interjected between the clasping hands. Little bins go into the fist of one hand, which is then clasped by the other (see attached pics).
I don’t follow. Even though I can get a good grip on a pencil with my comparatively large hands, I wouldn’t be able to hold it steady enough to view through it at 8x (if it had that capability)? I disagree. I can hold monoculars very steady for viewing using a modified “solidarity clasp” as described above. My problems with monoculars are that they don’t provide as much data to the brain (= view detail) as do views using two eyes, and they are generally hard to focus.
Again, I don’t understand the last sentence (about the unsupportive thumb), but otherwise I sympathize and agree with your frustrations about getting a good grip on roofs with a big center hinge and too little barrel extension to allow for finger wrap (and barrels too fat for big thumbs to fit between them). But I don’t think the issue is one of bino size. I have the same problems with most traditional style roofs whatever their size, and especially with the full-sized Leica 8x42 Ultravid because of its very long center hinge with end cap extension. Moreover, I don’t think users with smaller hands are able to get any better a grip, since their fingers run over the top of these bins without being able to grip anything, the same as yours. Some traditional hinge roofs are a little better than others because they have a ridges, or an indent related to the center hinge, that can serve as a grip for the ends of one’s fingers.
I totally agree that bins that allow for a wrap-around grip are best, and though I know they are not universally loved by all users, I think such bins generally work better for folks with small and large hands alike than do traditional style roof models. Some examples of good designs: Zeiss 7x42 Classic, Swarovski EL/SV/CL, Nikon EDG. The Leica 8x32 Ultravid allows me quite a good-wrap around grip. I’d love to see the eye-relief of the equally-short Zeiss FL married to the Leica 8x32 Ultravid body, or else something like a shortened version of the Swarovski 8x32 SV.
I find that when my hand extends beyond the barrel that such overhang causes no problems, nor does it undermine grip stability. The overhanging bit of palm is fleshy material that provides little support (or packing material function) since it also extends beyond the metacarpal bones. If I have a good grip with the thumb side of my palm, that is enough, provided I also use the thumb side of my left hand to support the bin forward of my right hand.
I think I remember Steve Ingraham making this claim about the Nikon SE, and maybe the Swift 820 Audubon as well, but I don’t follow. I have a number of porros, and in comparing them, I don’t find it any more, or less, natural/easy to hold the SE with my elbows down than the others. Actually, I find it easy to hold all manner of porros with my elbows down. Putting the elbows down is a matter of bending the arms downward at the wrist. The action of my wrist is unrelated to my hand grip.
--AP
Alexis,
I'm mystified about your continued befuddlement after my illustrated explanations. I thought they were quite clear.
No doubt some folks with large hands get on well with small bins, but many do not. On this thread the count is even, 3-3. But if I did a survey, I bet the number of big handed birders who find holding small roofs challenging would out number those who have no problem.
I've had to modify some of my bins to fit my hands, but as far as grips, there are only so many ways for me to hold small bins given my hand size and shape, but I'm always open to learning new tricks.
However, as far as answering your questions such as "How do thumb indents provide support?," I'm not sure what to say!
If it's not lens distortion I'm looking at, it appears you have much wider thumbs than I do, so perhaps the usefulness of thumb indents might not seem as obvious to you (they are useless if they don't fit your thumbs or are angled the wrong way for your grip).
I will think about your comments and questions and see if I can formulate some responses, though I'm sure I can explain myself any better than I already have.
Brock
Last edited:
