Bempton Cliffs RSPB reserve (2 Viewers)

[BenjiS]

After a successfull trip to Bempton Cliffs today, just wanted to double check a few birds:

I'm pretty sure the gull is either Great Black-Backed or Herring, not sure if ID is possible or not

Not sure if it's a shag or cormorant, but guessed shag

Dove, I thought just feral pigeon at first, but my brother reckoned it was pure rock dove - any ideas?

TIA

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Benji,

1. bird: pattern of the growing new primaries with adult type pattern should make this a Herring Gull
2. bird: yes, its a Shag for me too. The right shape, and extent of the gular patch
3. bird: I cant answer that and hope like you for more comments. Thanks! (I compared it to my Collins guide, and yes could well be. But I remember, that I didnt studied this problem seriously a long time ago)

 

[THE_FERN]

Think I read somewhere here that true wild rock doves basically don't exist in the UK anymore... Or if they do it's on remote Scottish islands. I certainly don't think there are any "genetically pure" ones (whatever that means in this context: they are, after all, the same species as feral pigeons)

 

[Bewick]

Certainly a shag, also agree with herring gull.

 

[Earnest lad]

I have been to Bempton Cliffs and seen the pigeons there. Whilst they may not be the "pure" thing, I noticed that they all seemed to have the seemingly pure characteristics as seen on your bird. I find that to be relatively unusual for pigeons elsewhere in the UK. Perhaps others disagree or have different experiences. Admittedly I don't know a lot about pigeons
Perhaps these Bempton birds are entirely cliff-dwelling birds that have not intermingled with feral stock as much as others elsewhere in the UK.

 

[aeshna5]

I have been to Bempton Cliffs and seen the pigeons there. Whilst they may not be the "pure" thing, I noticed that they all seemed to have the seemingly pure characteristics as seen on your bird. I find that to be relatively unusual for pigeons elsewhere in the UK. Perhaps others disagree or have different experiences. Admittedly I don't know a lot about pigeons
Perhaps these Bempton birds are entirely cliff-dwelling birds that have not intermingled with feral stock as much as others elsewhere in the UK.

I was at Bempton a couple of years ago & while there might have been quite a lot with ancestral type plumage there were quite a few others that fitted the range of Feral Pigeons seen elsewhere. I certainly wouldn't call any birds in England & most of mainland Britain anything but Feral, but good to see birds that look like the real thing in a more natural setting.

 

[THE_FERN]

I think there's a risk we're too precious about these things. I think an interesting question is why we see all this phenotypic variation in wild pigeons. I can only assume it's because they're regularly interbreeding with pigeon fanciers'/pigeon racers' birds. If it were not the case you'd expect they would have reverted to wild type by now (we can assume the ancestral plumage is like that for a reason: confers some benefits). Shows just how pervasive the domestic birds must be

 

[Farnboro John]

I think there's a risk we're too precious about these things. I think an interesting question is why we see all this phenotypic variation in wild pigeons. I can only assume it's because they're regularly interbreeding with pigeon fanciers'/pigeon racers' birds. If it were not the case you'd expect they would have reverted to wild type by now (we can assume the ancestral plumage is like that for a reason: confers some benefits). Shows just how pervasive the domestic birds must be

I don't think we are, not now. Back in the day BOU would pretend Feral Pigeons didn't exist so would talk about Rock Dove distribution in the context of the coasts and cliffs of the Highlands and Islands but eventually they had to concede that a couple of million feral birds milling about in cities and towns had to be recognised, albeit as the same species.

But aesthetically at least I think it's fine for birders to deplore absolutely the gradual elimination of the delightful sight of a flock of identical wild Rock Doves and its replacement by a bunch of scabby harlequins.

John

 

[JWN Andrewes]

I used to (perhaps naively) consider those on Iona, Mull, as good as any as "pure"Rock Doves. Then on our second to last visit in 2016 one of the shop owners there had a racing pigeon waddling about outside her shop. She said it had first turned up ages ago, and she'd even managed to catch it and return it to its owner, whereupon it flew straight back to her on release! Then this year I noted some white doves hanging around the Abbey, and photographed this individual. Another bastion fallen.

 

[KenM]

Strange, that probably the most impure organism on the planet…should bestow such virtue on “purity”🤣

 

[Farnboro John]

I used to (perhaps naively) consider those on Iona, Mull, as good as any as "pure"Rock Doves. Then on our second to last visit in 2016 one of the shop owners there had a racing pigeon waddling about outside her shop. She said it had first turned up ages ago, and she'd even managed to catch it and return it to its owner, whereupon it flew straight back to her on release! Then this year I noted some white doves hanging around the Abbey, and photographed this individual. Another bastion fallen.

The shop bird was lucky to survive, most racing pigeon owners would have wrung its neck: a non-returning racing pigeon is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

John

 

[THE_FERN]

Strange, that probably the most impure organism on the planet…should bestow such virtue on “purity”🤣

"Impure" in which sense? Yes we have genes from others (denisovians, neanderthals etc) but I'm sure we're not alone in that. There's no evidence we've had entire genomes replaced--- unlike those organisms whose mitochondria have been displaced, for example.

The fact so many pigeon plumages exist just shows how many domestic pigeons there are (and this must be true in countries where they've been introduced too)

 

[Richard Prior]

I used to (perhaps naively) consider those on Iona, Mull, as good as any as "pure"Rock Doves. Then on our second to last visit in 2016 one of the shop owners there had a racing pigeon waddling about outside her shop. She said it had first turned up ages ago, and she'd even managed to catch it and return it to its owner, whereupon it flew straight back to her on release! Then this year I noted some white doves hanging around the Abbey, and photographed this individual. Another bastion fallen.

Yes, I admit I was a bit deflated, just after spotting two cracking ‘pure’ Rock Dove at Gudari ski resort (2000m altitude) in Georgia last March to see a Feral type land next to them

 

[KenM]

The shop bird was lucky to survive, most racing pigeon owners would have wrung its neck: a non-returning racing pigeon is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

John

Wouldn’t know if any “lost” pigeons have ever been returned to their owners and thereafter have proven a liability…ie gone AWOL and taken others with them to a non scheduled destination.😮

 

[Andy Adcock]

Local to me in Cyprus, there are birds on the coast that look like the classic, Rock Dove but they'll be feeding with a flock of manky, mottled looking things that certainly are not.

 

[JWN Andrewes]

The shop bird was lucky to survive, most racing pigeon owners would have wrung its neck: a non-returning racing pigeon is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

John

Yeah, surprised me too for the same reason.

 

[William Lewis]

Sorry to interject slightly off topic but what's the situation with stock doves - we get a few about here in Bedfordshire - I like seeing them when they turn up. Are they liable to interbreed successfully with the feral pigeon?

 

[lou salomon]

I'm almost 100% that the gull is a GBBG, 3cy. It has mirrors in 2nd generation (old) p10, which HG (argenteus) doesn't show or very few (argentatus). But the whole bird has the jizz of a GBBG with its powerfull bill, broad wings and dark irides.

 

[Farnboro John]

Sorry to interject slightly off topic but what's the situation with stock doves - we get a few about here in Bedfordshire - I like seeing them when they turn up. Are they liable to interbreed successfully with the feral pigeon?

You can't rule out anything completely (I've seen Woodpigeon/Feral Pigeon hybrids - even more yeuch than usual!) but their respective lifestyles don't encourage interspecies intimacy.

John

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,

thanks for correction Lou (I thought the black band on p6 is too narrow for a GBBG, so I have still have to learn much about variation!) and to all for the interesting comments about feral/wild (type) Rock Doves!