Birds from Botswana (1 Viewer)

[arcadillor]

Juveniles don't have collar, if this is you point, and the eye ring as a thin circle is typical of S. decipiens and excludes Red-eyed that has much wider and different shaped. Red-eyed Dove has also much dark eye.

mourning have a complete round eyering
but at that photo I can see a triangle bare area both in front and behind eye
seems more like red eyed

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

mourning have a complete round eyering
but at that photo I can see a triangle bare area both in front and behind eye
seems more like red eyed

It is a usual S. decipiens, look at juveniles Red-eyed Dove : https://africanbirdclub.org/afbid/public/imgdata/photos/763/7631491552537.jpg

Different eye colour, different plumage colour, even bill size... now if you want to put it down as Red-eye Dove or even Diamond Dove, no difference for me o

 

[arcadillor]

It is a usual S. decipiens, look at juveniles Red-eyed Dove : https://africanbirdclub.org/afbid/public/imgdata/photos/763/7631491552537.jpg

Different eye colour, different plumage colour, even bill size... now if you want to put it down as Red-eye Dove or even Diamond Dove, no difference for me o

although most red eyed have deep red eyes，then some individuals still have orange yellow eyes like this
https://www.theexplora.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/The-Red-Eye-Dove.jpg
eye of mourning is yellowish white
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/JWAMWH/mourning-collared-dovestreptopelia-decipiens-JWAMWH.jpg?h=640
further more，lore of mourning is completely feathered

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

although most red eyed have deep red eyes，then some individuals still have orange yellow eyes like this
https://www.theexplora.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/The-Red-Eye-Dove.jpg
eye of mourning is yellowish white
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/JWAMWH/mourning-collared-dovestreptopelia-decipiens-JWAMWH.jpg?h=640
further more，lore of mourning is completely feathered

Lots of birds online are wrongly identified... lores feathering doesn't depend of the species but vary individually.

 

[arcadillor]

Lots of birds online are wrongly identified... lores feathering doesn't depend of the species but vary individually.

I know many wrong photo online

but see this one
http://www.naturefocus.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/African-Mourning-Dove-2015.jpg
juvenile mourning has round reddish eyering and grey head already

then that bird only has grey on the front，and no distinct eyering

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

I know many wrong photo online

but see this one
http://www.naturefocus.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/African-Mourning-Dove-2015.jpg
juvenile mourning has round reddish eyering and grey head already

then that bird only has grey on the front，and no distinct eyering

This is properly identified, but not at the same stage, with full collared already.

Well, I base my identification on thousands of both species seen in the field in 25+ years, and OP bird is a S. decipiens. I suggest we can stop this lost of time. I'm confident oleg will put it down as such, we have been far enough.

 

[MacNara]

I still think is a marico
is has black mottled belly，neither southern nor miombo have any black on belly and its red band with some blue&purple
feathers，that two both have no at all
it is a moulting marico

I was often stumped how variable is the colour in the field. There's no much other option than Marico in Botswana with this pattern...

Thanks both, and apologies to you both and Oleg. In my memory, Marico has always been deep maroon. Indeed the problem I remember is not some birds looking bright, but that if you don't have reasonably good light, then the whole underside of the bird looks black - belly and breastband both.

But I looked through some of my photos from various places. And I found one bird from Uganda which is definitely Marico but has a breastband that shows reddish like Oleg's bird. All the others I have look maroon, it should be said. So I apologise for doubting that this brighter colour (or appearance) is possible, since I've seen it myself.

All the physical books I have, however, show a purple-maroon breastband and describe it as such, and for all ssp/races.

Handbook of Birds of the World Alive (online, you need a subscription) gives three subspecies/races of Marico (which it insists on calling Mariqua): osiris (Ethiopia and northern east Africa), suahelicus (central and southern east Africa, west to DRC) and mariquensis (the nominate, southern Africa).

It gives an illustration for osiris and for mariquensis (but not suahelicus which we are given to understand is basically the same as the nominate). The illustration for osiris has a narrow purple-maroon (though a bit reddish) breastband. The illustration for mariquensis has a wider, red (to my eyes) breastband.

The HBW text is a bit contradictory. None of the description describes the breastband as red, reddish, or looking red sometimes.

In the main description, we are told that:

Race suahelicus is shorter-billed than nominate, male has greyer abdomen; osiris male has more violet-blue on abdomen and lower edge of throat, broader upper (violet) breastband, darker and narrower lower (maroon) breastband, female more heavily marked on throat and breast.

But if you click on the illustration of the two illustrated ssp to get their information, the description is absolutely identical for the two ssp:

base of throat ringed by narrow band of iridescent dark violet-blue, below this a purple-maroon breastband (8–10 mm deep) mixed with violet feathering; otherwise black below, including underwing-coverts and axillaries;

On looking through my photos, I realise that I have seen Marico clearly in Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania (all deep-coloured breastbands, and I can't see any difference between the Ethiopia and the Tanzanian birds), and Uganda (a reddish band, as I said above). I have seen the bird in Namibia (Caprivi Strip) but the male was so far away that no detail of colour was visible (so perhaps I shouldn't have commented on southern birds).

Maybe someone can say whether southern African Marico are generally redder than more northern birds, or if it's just the way the light hits, or a more individual difference between birds.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Thanks both, and apologies to you both and Oleg. In my memory, Marico has always been deep maroon. Indeed the problem I remember is not some birds looking bright, but that if you don't have reasonably good light, then the whole underside of the bird looks black - belly and breastband both.

But I looked through some of my photos from various places. And I found one bird from Uganda which is definitely Marico but has a breastband that shows reddish like Oleg's bird. All the others I have look maroon, it should be said. So I apologise for doubting that this brighter colour (or appearance) is possible, since I've seen it myself.

All the physical books I have, however, show a purple-maroon breastband and describe it as such, and for all ssp/races.

Handbook of Birds of the World Alive (online, you need a subscription) gives three subspecies/races of Marico (which it insists on calling Mariqua): osiris (Ethiopia and northern east Africa), suahelicus (central and southern east Africa, west to DRC) and mariquensis (the nominate, southern Africa).

It gives an illustration for osiris and for mariquensis (but not suahelicus which we are given to understand is basically the same as the nominate). The illustration for osiris has a narrow purple-maroon (though a bit reddish) breastband. The illustration for mariquensis has a wider, red (to my eyes) breastband.

The HBW text is a bit contradictory. None of the description describes the breastband as red, reddish, or looking red sometimes.

In the main description, we are told that:



But if you click on the illustration of the two illustrated ssp to get their information, the description is absolutely identical for the two ssp:



On looking through my photos, I realise that I have seen Marico clearly in Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania (all deep-coloured breastbands, and I can't see any difference between the Ethiopia and the Tanzanian birds), and Uganda (a reddish band, as I said above). I have seen the bird in Namibia (Caprivi Strip) but the male was so far away that no detail of colour was visible (so perhaps I shouldn't have commented on southern birds).

Maybe someone can say whether southern African Marico are generally redder than more northern birds, or if it's just the way the light hits, or a more individual difference between birds.

I suggest you use Google Image with "cinnyris mariquensis south africa". Will appear plenty of Mariqua Sunbirds from South Africa. It is spectacular how the breast band can be (or appear) red or purple and all in between extremes.

MacNara, not only birds are all individually different, but those colours are physical, as in many sunbirds, hummingbirds, starlings and more, so they give different effects according to the angle of the light.

 

[oleg2oleg]

My friends, thank you very much for so interesting and hot discussion!!
So, Dove is S. decipiens and Sunbird - Marico. Confirmed!!! )))

 

[Tib78]

I have been privately asked to comment on this thread so here goes

some say juvenile red eyed dove collar indistinct，but I have not see any one lack at all
lemon dove have a rather short wing not beyond uppertail coverts

Hi Arcadillor,

Red-eyed dove does lack a collar when in FULL juvenile plumage. This is where some people get confused I guess, as like most (all?) African Streptopelia, Red-eyed dove undergo a partial post-juvenile moult that includes body feathers while the wing (flight feathers and coverts) retain their juvenile feathers. Thus the bird ends up having a juvenile look because of its wings but with an adult-like body...and black collar.


You'll find attached an example of a Red-eye dove undergoing post-juvenile moult. The difference between the reddish juvenile feathers and adult-type vinaceous feathers is readily visible on the breast and neck, and note this picture has been taken just at the moment when the bird is acquiring its black collar.


As to the ID of the OP dove, you are 100% right. The extent and shape of bare skin aroung the eye, along with the stocky shape of the bird, its slightly longer primary projection and stronger billed compared to Mourning leave really no doubt. The tinge of the feathers coming through on the breast are also a better fit for Red-eyed and perching on a Palm-tree is typical for the species too.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Well, the photos shared talk by themselves... I've explained enough.

 

[Tib78]

Well let’s see.

This bird has:
- triangular shaped patches of bare-skin both in front and behind the eye
- bare loral line
- a long bill
- dull greyish legs with a slight purple tinge at best (not rich reddish pink as in Mourning)
- a stocky shape
- extensive rufous fringes to the primaries
- uniformly brown coverts including the inner greater coverts

I would be interested to read an «explanation» that can convincingly turn this bird into a Mourning dove...
And by the way these 2 juvenile Red-eyed doves nicely illustrate the fact that they may show a pale yellow iris: https://africanbirdclub.org/afbid/search/birddetails/species/701/31601

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

There is no

"triangular shaped patches of bare-skin both in front and behind the eye"

is it feathered on op bird, excluding Red-eyed. I think the ID of a common dove doesn't worth so much time of discussion though. African Mourning is abundant in Botswana and one record less or more doens't change much...

 

[RafaelMatias]

Hi all,
I have a simple question regarding the OP dove for the African birds gurus (hoping not to create more confusion). This juvenile's bill shows a nice groove running from the nostril to near bill tip. Do you guys know if this feature is of any ID use or either species can show this?

 

[Tib78]

Hello Rafael, it’s funny that you mention the long nasal groove as I had noticed it too yesterday. All I can say is that after trawling through a number of images I didn’t find any African mourning dove having this feature while it is present on a fair number of Red-eyed doves but not all birds seem to show it. Yet chances are that it depends also on the position of the bill compared to the observer.
My gut feeling, however, is that a long nasal groove may at least be used as a supportive pro-Red-eyed feature.

But in all fairness, I am not sure it’s necessary to get into that level of details since the OP bird displays a full suite of Red-eyed dove features and strictly not a single pro-African mourning dove feature.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Hi all,
I have a simple question regarding the OP dove for the African birds gurus (hoping not to create more confusion). This juvenile's bill shows a nice groove running from the nostril to near bill tip. Do you guys know if this feature is of any ID use or either species can show this?

Interesting point I never check that... notably because we don't need that to identify.

African Mourning Dove was breeding in my town in Uganda, and this is such a regular juvenile, I just wonder how we can make such a mess. Red-eyed was also breding there, and they are actually different enough to prevent all confusion. I just don't even understand how people can consider a Red-eyed here.

I think I used already too much time for that bird, I give up arguing but still 100% convinced it is a (regular) African Mournig.

 

[RafaelMatias]

Cheers Tib. Interesting, I'll be paying attention to this feature then.

 

[Tib78]

Well you gotta feel for Oleg who just wanted this dove to be identified...but ended up being told that his sighting was not that interesting and not worth such a long discussion (bearing in mind the bird had already been correctly identified in the very first reply...)
But guess what? An endless discussion is often what happens when someone stubbornly clings to an ID even though multiple evidences to prove that person wrong have been brought to light.


So, Oleg, if you’re still confused and uncertain - wouldn’t blame you after the weird turn this thread has taken - I would advise you to compare the features highlighted along the thread to some pictures available online and make up your own mind.
If you’re still undecided after that, I can share your pic with top African birders and get back to you with the results if you want to...but I already know what they’ll say...

 

[oleg2oleg]

Tib, thank you and all other for the help. I put it as Mourning Dove, but really, sometimes it seems to me, that it looks like Red-eyed.... I believe you and other people, cause I'm not a specialist... But please, look at this picture of Red-eyed and here is my second and last picture of this strange dove....

 

[Tib78]

Tib, thank you and all other for the help. I put it as Mourning Dove, but really, sometimes it seems to me, that it looks like Red-eyed.... I believe you and other people, cause I'm not a specialist... But please, look at this picture of Red-eyed and here is my second and last picture of this strange dove....

Hello Oleg,

Well this dove is not that strange really, and I have made clear already what I «think» (euphemism alert!) your bird is, with multiple arguments/reasons.

But I am not asking you to trust me...I would simply suggest that you look at the pointed/triangular patch of bare skin situated in front and at the rear of the eye of your bird as they are even more visible with the new picture you posted (see my «quick» editing of this image). The comparison you made with the 2 images is certainly helpful as it shows the shape and extent of bare skin is similar but the subject being an immature, the skin colour is different and thus the skin patch stands out less clearly compared to the adult on the left.
So just look at images of immature of both species and compare the shape and colour of the orbital skin, some examples here ( some of hem have already been posted on this thread by myself and Arcadillor).
Mourning :
- http://www.pers-birding-pages.com/www.pers-birding-pages.com/African_Mourning_Dove.html (3rd image from top)
- http://www.naturefocus.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/African-Mourning-Dove-2015.jpg

Red-eyed:
- https://africanbirdclub.org/afbid/search/birddetails/species/701/31601

You can of course refer to other features such as legs/toes colour, plumage, etc...
I have included in the attachements the same picture of a juv Red-eyed I posted above (from my own collection) and a closeup of an adult African mourning so you can clearly see the shape of the orbital skin.

Then again if you still struggle to confidently reach a conclusion, I can forward your images to very experienced African birds specialists...