BOP seen this morning NE.London....? (1 Viewer)

[KenM]

Excellent photos, Tom. They show that typical buteo buteo jizz, which is seen also on Ken's photos.

The actual lenght of the tail is VERY hard to estimate. Due to the different look it gives in different flight modes and at different angels.

Remember vividly how I once tentatively identified a distant, approaching, migrant falcon in poor light (seemed all dark) as a Hobby due to its flight and general jizz.
Another "heavy dude" birder beside me claimed that it was a male Red-footed Falcon. When the bird was almost over our heads (close!) the light conditions changed, so that we could see that it was indeed an adult Hobby.

The other birder then indignantly exclaimed:
that's the most long-tailed Hobby I've ever seen!

Had this bird, at that very moment, suffered a fatal heart attack, and had fallen to the ground for measurements to be taken, my instincts suggested that I could have gone and bet the farm that the tail lenght didn't differ from the average......

Peter

We have accord in the first statement.

To determine body to tail length....slap a ruler on it!

I don't use anecdotal "evidence" when attempting to qualify an ID, I try and deal with the subject matter (images...as are presented before me, as I wouldn't want to appear disingenuous).

cheers

 

[KenM]

It does depend where you measure from. Assuming that the tail on your bird doesn't start where the wing ends your buzzard, using the first picture, looks to have a very short tail...

It was because of it's tail length "in the field and narrow head" so to speak, that prompted me to "grab the camera" in the first instance, as compared to the regular CB's that pass me by....a shape that is only too familiar.

 

[nobbyball]

Raptors are funny buggers, falcon shapes change all the time in flight, especially those tail lengths and we've all been there with Kestrels vs Hobbies vs Merlins on shape alone. This is a Common Buzzard. Photo 3 shows enough of the carpal patch on the underwing to give it away on plumage alone. The feel of the bird is wrong for Honey Buzzard. But this is why we love raptors... these moments when something slightly unexpected catch your eye... but it's just a Buzzard.

 

[KenM]

Raptors are funny buggers, falcon shapes change all the time in flight, especially those tail lengths and we've all been there with Kestrels vs Hobbies vs Merlins on shape alone. This is a Common Buzzard. Photo 3 shows enough of the carpal patch on the underwing to give it away on plumage alone. The feel of the bird is wrong for Honey Buzzard. But this is why we love raptors... these moments when something slightly unexpected catch your eye... but it's just a Buzzard.

What's the ''set in stone'' feature regarding the carpal patch Nobby?

Cheers

 

[nobbyball]

Sorry, should have made myself clearer. It's a small, fine, carpal patch on an overall pale underwing (as per Tom's second picture link). I would expect greater contrast on a Honey Buzzard underwing especially as this looks like a pale bird. Further to add... the picture with the Corvid also shows the lack of contrast. Pale Common Buzzard.

 

[KenM]

Sorry, should have made myself clearer. It's a small, fine, carpal patch on an overall pale underwing (as per Tom's second picture link). I would expect greater contrast on a Honey Buzzard underwing especially as this looks like a pale bird. Further to add... the picture with the Corvid also shows the lack of contrast. Pale Common Buzzard.

Trawling the web images and Collins for HB, I'm finding a lot of variability with the general cosmetics and with the contrasting carpal patches obviously present or otherwise.
And because of this variability on gender and age, I'd prefer to concentrate on the general jizz and structure which seemed somewhat at odds to CB. Here's a shot of one I took several years ago, initially reminiscent of an Accipter in level flight.

Cheers

 

[apcdave]

unfortunately jizz / structure etc cannot be accurately assessed from photos - particularly distant shots like these - so definite plumage features are the only ones we should use

 

[Simon Wates]

agree on common buzzard, could be a 2cy in which wings are bit narrower making tail appear longer.

On a fresh look I'd agree with this too.

 

[Biancone]

Not easy images to my eyes; distance and the dark body against a bright grey sky seem to have encouraged some edge artefacts. Given that, this looks much more like Buteo than Honey-buzzard to me. Can't see any hint of the somewhat pigeon-like head shape of Honey (which is usually but not always evident even in distant flying birds); this bird seems to have a broad neck and broad-ish head shape. Not sure that trying accurately to evaluate relative tail length on images composed of so few pixels is useful, but I can't see any hint of the distinctive shape of Honey-buzzard tail (granted, some flight attitudes make this more or less distinctive than others). Wing shape looks good for Buteo also. The indistinct ventral pattern is a much better fit for Buteo rather than any variant of Honey-buzzard. Flight behaviour might have given some better indications.

Brian

 

[AlinoVegano]

Common Buzzard, no possible doubt; for those who doubt, there is a little easy detail here.

Adult HB have only the tip of the external primaries black. Juveniles HB are in Africa now. And here, clearly, external primaries are all black.

 

[dantheman]

To me the first pic looks quite 'blown' or whatever the word is (distance/pixellation causing) - the outline of the corvid and its primaries shows this well. Given the pinched in appearance of the crow it would be fair comparison with the bop -ie not right.

What I'm trying to say is the crow looks skinnier than it should - by the same argument the bop also appears more slender than it actually is (in the head area, long tail etc). Bringing it back to reality makes it more Common Buzzard rather than Honey if anything ... and yes, not the tiny pigeon head of Honey.

Full tail and fully bulging wings of Honey not coming out in these pic for me either, although I totally get it's superficial resemblance to that species n some respects. Which fits with imm Common Buzzard as some of the experts have argued.

 

[CARERY]

I just had a skim of the discussion and was surprised nobody suggested a late Rough-legged Buzzard - as was my first thought (carpal patches look good, no?). I agree that plumage features are hard to see and jizz might be misleading on photos but I just can't see a Honey Buzzard here. To me it is not unusally long necked and in straight flight the tail would have a different shape with more rounded corners (recognisable on the photo in post 26).

Have a look at the photos here:
Rough-legged: http://birds-in-flight.net/?p=6341
Common: http://birds-in-flight.net/?p=6337
Honey: http://birds-in-flight.net/?p=6416

 

[lewis20126]

One look at the thread title and I predicted to myself that the bird would be a Common Buzzard. Which of course it is. Again.

cheers, alan

 

[dantheman]

I just had a skim of the discussion and was surprised nobody suggested a late Rough-legged Buzzard - as was my first thought (carpal patches look good, no?). I agree that plumage features are hard to see and jizz might be misleading on photos but I just can't see a Honey Buzzard here. To me it is not unusally long necked and in straight flight the tail would have a different shape with more rounded corners (recognisable on the photo in post 26).

But wouldn't a late Rough-legged Buzzard be even rarer over London than an early Honey Buzzard?

And no-one would want that ...

 

[CARERY]

But wouldn't a late Rough-legged Buzzard be even rarer over London than an early Honey Buzzard?

And no-one would want that ...

I'm aware of that... still thought I might suggest an alternative to CB :eek!:

 

[AlinoVegano]

I'm aware of that... still thought I might suggest an alternative to CB :eek!:

As it is a CB, all alternative would be a wrong answer 8-P

 

[Nutcracker]

One look at the thread title and I predicted to myself that the bird would be a Common Buzzard. Which of course it is. Again.

cheers, alan

That's not fair . . . .



Half of these London BoP threads are for Sparrowhawks 3

 

[Rotherbirder]

IMHO, reliable assessment of wing & tail length/width isn't really possible from any of these images due to digital artifact. Check out the uniform, pale, digital 'halo' around birds in all images. This has the effect of artificially 'slimming' the bird, especially where wings & tail meet the body, skewing both shape & relative proportions. CB for me FWIW.

 

[KenM]

But wouldn't a late Rough-legged Buzzard be even rarer over London than an early Honey Buzzard?
And no-one would want that ...

Many a true word.......

IMHO, reliable assessment of wing & tail length/width isn't really possible from any of these images due to digital artifact. Check out the uniform, pale, digital 'halo' around birds in all images. This has the effect of artificially 'slimming' the bird, especially where wings & tail meet the body, skewing both shape & relative proportions. CB for me FWIW.

Broadly speaking in agreement Rother regarding pixellation and the sharpening that takes place automatically in camera. However I disagree with the altering of proportions, as through the bins, the head projected and the tail was long. Unfortunately the distance proximity didn't do me any favours regarding any detail to get any real purchase on. It's been an interesting thread, hopefully one will come closer next time.

Cheers

 

[Hotspur]

Common Buzzard on shape, jizz, plumage. But then Ken posting terrible photos of a BoP and then castigating anyone who suggests it's the common/default species was what this thread was always going to be about.